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    reposting from the other thread (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by CST on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 02:25:27 PM EST
    (and stealing from Scott)

    In the Boston marathon bombings, 2 people killed 3 people using bombs in a crowded space.  Yes, many more people were injured, but only 3 actually died.

    In addition, 1 security guard was shot and killed, and 1 cop was killed via friendly fire in the reckless shootout that took place in watertown, and 1 bomber was killed by a car.

    But it's not guns that are dangerous...

    Yes there are crazed wackjobs who can find ways to kill people without guns.  But the crazed wackjobs with guns are much more effective at actually killing people.

    I was just thinking (none / 0) (#3)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 02:31:27 PM EST
    this same thing earlier today. Those bombers only killed two people and this guy killed killed 9.

    Of course this in Charleston was a racial hatred killing aimed at a certain group. Those bombers aimed for anybody. I don't think it would have mattered what race they killed.

    Parent

    You do understand (none / 0) (#67)
    by coast on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 07:55:54 PM EST
    That the shooter was not from Charleston.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 08:58:27 PM EST
    he was from Lexington which is a suburb of Columbia. He's still from the same state.

    Parent
    Apologies GA (none / 0) (#85)
    by coast on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 10:12:51 PM EST
    Reading the post again I thought you were saying something else.  Sorry about that.

    Parent
    Don't think anyone said he was (none / 0) (#76)
    by Yman on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 08:54:03 PM EST
    Relevance?

    Parent
    sorry my bad (none / 0) (#5)
    by CST on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 02:40:10 PM EST
    the cop did not die from the friendly fire.

    Parent
    It just gets worse... (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 02:51:32 PM EST
    From Washington Monthly (and NBC News):

    Dylann Storm Roof, a 21-year-old who posed on his Facebook page (see one of the images above) with flag patches from Apartheid-era South Africa and the racist Rhodesian regime that governed what is now Zimbabwe.

    And then there's this from NBC News:

       Sylvia Johnson, a cousin of church shooting victim Pastor Clementa Pinckney says she spoke with one of the survivors "and she said that he had reloaded five different times... and he just said `I have to do it. You rape our women and you're taking over our country. And you have to go.'"

    Roof's uncle told police he was given a gun for his most recent birthday.

    Because what's a better gift for a racist than a gun, right?

    it gets better (none / 0) (#8)
    by CST on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 02:56:23 PM EST
    The latest I've heard from the apologists is that this was an anti-Christian shooting.

    Parent
    Whaaaat? How can one even be an (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 03:03:08 PM EST
    apologist for this kind of violence?

    Anti-Christian?  I guess the apologists haven't taken a gander at Roof's Facebook page.

    I'm just sick.

    Parent

    sorry by "apologists" (none / 0) (#13)
    by CST on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 03:09:54 PM EST
    I just meant Fox News.  They aren't actually trying to justify this particular shooting.

    Just justifying guns, the right to be racist, the right to hate Muslims, and defenders of Christianity from all.

    Parent

    right...just trying to make it (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 03:48:26 PM EST
    seem like anything but what it was: white supremacist gun violence with black victems.

    Parent
    Lindsey, (none / 0) (#14)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 03:11:59 PM EST
    a candidate for the Republican presidential nomination, sees it as a case of looking for Christians to kill.

    Parent
    Oy! (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 03:17:30 PM EST
    Could Lindsey possibly be any more clueless?

    Parent
    Santorum, another (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 03:29:42 PM EST
    Republican candidate for the Republican presidential nomination, is clued-in more than Lindsey, but never miss an opportunity: he noted the importance of prayer at this time, and connected his claim that we are having "an assault on our religious liberties."  Maybe, Santorum has been somehow prevented from praying for the victims and their families.  

    Parent
    It's not just him, Mme. Zorba. (none / 0) (#22)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 03:40:08 PM EST
    That appears to be the talking point du jour at Fox News today.

    Parent
    Sadly, I have seen that (none / 0) (#30)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 04:12:27 PM EST
    Although, calling Fox News, "news" is a misnomer.
    Fox Right Wing Propaganda would fit them better.

    Parent
    And it is so hard to find white Christians (5.00 / 3) (#25)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 03:50:42 PM EST
    in South Carolina. What an idiot.

    Parent
    Anne, you should listen to Lindsay Graham, (none / 0) (#16)
    by caseyOR on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 03:13:26 PM EST
    senator from South Carolina and a twig in the world of presidential timber, who made believes this was all about killing christians.

    "But it's 2015, there are people out there looking for Christians to kill them," Graham added. "This is a mean time we live in."


    Parent
    Apparently (none / 0) (#28)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 04:07:28 PM EST
    Lindsey doesn't know the geography and the roads of SC too well. This guy had to drive a couple of hours down I-26 to get to this church. So he's saying that this guy passed all the way through Columbia with their numerous churches to kill Christians and had to go all the way to Charleston to find some????

    The only people who will buy that garbage are the Fox nitwits.

    Parent

    ... to bring his own cross and nails to the occasion.

    Parent
    It's like when Rush says (none / 0) (#12)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 03:04:53 PM EST
    watching football is like watching the Bloods against the Crips..he means because gangbangers come from Christian familes..

    Parent
    The stupid (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 04:12:06 PM EST
    it burns. If SC doesn't look like it is filled with idiots after this I don't know what. From the Daily Mail article they are talking about the Grand Dragon of the KKK living in the general area but they don't think they have any racial problems and apparently having a Grand Dragon living not too far from you is no BFD.

    Every time the stupid burns from Georgia I am reminded that SC is so much worse.

    There is a regional aspect (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 04:39:31 PM EST
    to the problem but it's not a regional problem.   I know lovely smart progressive people who live.   That sick pathetic loser could be anyone's next door neighbor.   He Internet has made participation in and reinforcement of pretty much anything a click away.

    Parent
    I'm not talking (none / 0) (#45)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 05:59:55 PM EST
    about the shooter but the people who actually live in the area said this about the KKK. But yeah, the guy that shot the people could have picked it up anywhere on the internet like the guy in California did who was into that ideology which I forget what it is. It says pretty much the same thing Phyllis Schafly says but it is a man saying it.

    Parent
    Please continue using the Daily Mail (none / 0) (#72)
    by coast on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 08:22:58 PM EST
    As a source for accurate news, because it is just filled with Pulitzer prize winners.....please!

    The news organizations are saying and printing anything to shape whatever narrative they are trying to push.

    Example - MSNBC report just said, while standing in downtown Charleston, that the shooting occurred no more than four miles from the Walter Scott shooting.  This is so patently false it's sad.  Mr Scott was murdered (because that is what it was) in North Charleston, a completely different city about 30 minutes from the church shooting.  Basically like saying someone shot in San Fran was shot in Oakland.

    Parent

    Are You Saying... (none / 0) (#110)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:38:28 AM EST
    ...the Grand Dragon of the KKK does not live in the area ?

    Her comment had nothing to do with MSNBC.

    Parent

    Boulevard (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 07:12:51 PM EST
    Robin Williams final film

    This complex, life-affirming, and surprising film stars Robin Williams in his remarkable final performance. BOULEVARD follows a married but closeted 60 year-old bank employee (Williams) whose life changes in unexpected ways after recklessly picking up a young male hustler. Kathy Baker, Bob Odenkirk and up-and-comer Roberto Aguire costar.

    LINK

    I wanted to see this movie... (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by desertswine on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 10:30:45 AM EST
    Kumiko the Treasure Hunter, but it never made it here, as many movies don't, if only for the tie-in to Fargo.

    Parent
    Looks intriguing. (none / 0) (#93)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 11:27:26 PM EST
    I'm tired of talking about race -- well, for the time being, anyway. Let's discuss something fun, like the movies.

    Do you know if there's a release date announced for this film?

    ;-D

    Parent

    Mid July (none / 0) (#109)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:31:41 AM EST
    i believe

    Parent
    An Aside on Sports: Not the Game but the Head (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 09:27:02 AM EST
    There are athletes that woke up one day and found that their professional careers had gone off the rails. Not by a physical abnormality or injury but rather by a mental block that creeps into their psyche, preventing them from playing the game they love with the talent they possess.

    As a baseball fan I can think of many cases in the game where "the yips" either destroyed or altered a career: Chuck Knoblauch, Steve Saks, Mackey Sasser, Rick Ankiel. My most painful to watch was Mark Wohlers.

    This of course brings me to the current case that may be the biggest fall from the sports precipice of all-time. Tiger Woods has gone from possibly the greatest professional golfer in the history of the game to possibly being the worst. In his last tournament Tiger made the cut and then proceeded to finish last by 29 shots.

    Skip forward to this weekend's Tournament, the US Open where a tournament win would draw Tiger within 3 of the all time record of Major Championship victories held by Jack Nicklaus. A feat that not long ago was considered Tiger's destiny.

    After the 1st round yesterday, Tiger found himself settled comfortably tied for 152nd place in a field of 156, 15 shots behind the leader after playing only 18 holes.

    If I hadn't spent a lifetime watching players fall apart from the yips, I'd say Elin Nordegren studied under the ghostly guidance of Marie Laveau.

    No kidding, CG - Tiger is about as (none / 0) (#127)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 09:44:22 AM EST
    bad as it's possible to be, and the short time it's taken for him to fall to this level is kind of astonishing.

    Does he retire?  Does he keep playing just to keep playing (although if he keeps not being able to make the cut, it hardly seems worth it).

    Maybe one day we'll know what sent his life off the rails, but it's clear that something - or a combination of somethings - did.  Was it getting such great success so early?  

    Whatever it is, it's sad and kind of humiliating to watch.  

    Parent

    I Am Going to Go on a Limb... (none / 0) (#159)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 04:15:12 PM EST
    ...and say a mad as hell Swede swinging a golf club.  He has never played the same since.

    Parent
    Tiger is done for the day and the weekend (none / 0) (#164)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 04:51:13 PM EST
    He'll obviously miss the cut. After 2 rounds he is 21 shots behind and one shot ahead of DFL.

    Parent
    Khalil Greene. (none / 0) (#137)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 10:58:31 AM EST
    Khalil would fall in the category of (none / 0) (#140)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 11:27:10 AM EST
    "What ever happened to..."

    He walked away from the game on his own. And it's apparent Khalil has no interest in letting anyone know why or where he might be. Perhaps he is meditating on a mountaintop in Tibet, but he isn't going to tell a soul.

    Parent

    When he began his career as the Pads' shortstop, (none / 0) (#143)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 11:52:55 AM EST
    Pretty sad.

    Parent
    David Duval (none / 0) (#145)
    by Steve13209 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 12:16:38 PM EST
    Was a top golfer...then disappeared.

    Parent
    Whatever became of Ben Curtis? (none / 0) (#169)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:04:00 PM EST
    His star has waned as well (none / 0) (#172)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:51:24 PM EST
    if we are to believe what's in the Wiki.

    2013-14

    In 2013 Curtis played in 20 PGA Tour events, making the cut in 10 with three top-25 finishes. His 2014 season netted him one top 10 and ten missed cuts in 24 starts to finish 131st in the FedEx Cup, leaving him partially exempt for the 2014-15 season.



    Parent
    Interesting (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 07:01:14 PM EST
    nice (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 08:21:41 AM EST
    Jeb Bush touted his intervention in the Terri Schiavo case and support for abortion restrictions Friday in an address to a gathering of conservatives that views the Bush family name warily.

    Speaking before the Faith & Freedom Coalition's conference, Bush said he would forgo a political speech in lieu of talking about his faith. But he made repeated reference to his record as governor of Florida, saying that when he was elected he insisted his administration would "build a culture of life from beginning to end."

    And he defended his role in the Schiavo case, including his support for a law that ordered doctors to reinsert a feeding tube into a comatose woman six days after it had been removed under a court order. The law was later struck down as unconstitutional.

    "When I was asked to intervene on behalf of a woman who could not speak up for herself, I stood on her side," Bush said. "I stood on the side of Terry Schiavo and her parents."

    He warned that religious freedom is "under attack in ways that we've never seen before, " from the Obama administration and the "general culture."



    Jeb Bush (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 10:42:30 AM EST
    is just as bad as the rest of the GOP field when it comes to issues.

    Parent
    Reading these comments, one could (5.00 / 2) (#197)
    by Anne on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 09:35:47 AM EST
    almost begin to think that jim has a thing about Muslims...

    He brings the same standard for proving the Muslim world objects to the violent and radical acts of others of the Muslim faith as he does to proving that climate change does not have a human component.

    In other words, his standards will always allow him to keep holding on to whatever he believes; there will never be enough Muslims living lives that are as normal as anyone's, never be enough scientists and studies and research and evidence that will convince him of man's role in climate change.

    It's beyond tiresome.    

    You read them? (none / 0) (#198)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 10:03:16 AM EST
    :)

    Parent
    24 out of 203 comments (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by sj on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 06:47:16 PM EST
    penned by jim. "We" have got to stop feeding this guy.

    M88 Please stop feeding it (5.00 / 1) (#207)
    by sj on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 04:30:26 PM EST


    In Every Legal Practice, a Dream Client: (5.00 / 1) (#213)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 07:44:53 PM EST
    Defendant "hails Satan" at Sentencing.

    He looks strangely cheerful.

    With Apologies to Bryan Ferry.  (In Every Dream Home a Heartache)

    Regarding the (none / 0) (#2)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 02:29:26 PM EST
    shooting in Charleston. I have been by that church many times as I went to college very near there.

    The statements from the politicians have been interesting. Tim Scott had a heartfelt reply to the murders. Nikki Haley? She seemed to be too afraid to call it what it was. Apparently she's afraid of the segregationists in SC it would seem. SC also has no hate crimes legislation.

    Some public officials have made statements (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 02:33:22 PM EST
    which seem to preclude the necessity of trial. Unfortunate. And they should know better.  

    Parent
    So, what are they saying? (none / 0) (#31)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 04:17:43 PM EST
    Take him outside right now and shoot him in the back of the head?  Hang him in the public square?
    All without a trial?  
    Yes, it's unfortunate, and it just serves to let us know how many people, including public officials, who (presumably) should know better, have never read the Constitution.


    Parent
    The Same People... (5.00 / 3) (#33)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 04:32:12 PM EST
    ...who clang to the Constitution like it was god itself when it comes to guns, but in regards to other matters it's nothing more than political non-sense.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#35)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 04:41:23 PM EST
    That has always ticked me off.
    It sort of reminds me of the right-wing (so-called) Christians, who claim to believe that every word in the Bible is literally true, except they keep ignoring the parts that don't fit into their own prejudices.

    Parent
    Well, some public officials will always ... (none / 0) (#32)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 04:30:00 PM EST
    ... respond to such emotionally jarring moments within their communities with their own emotional outbursts, which hold rich potential to be the equivalent of pouring gasoline on a fire.

    While public expressions of anger are understandable and natural human responses in the face of such horrific affronts to humanity, true leadership requires sober assessment, sound reasoning and reflective consideration during such times.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Governor Haley (R.SC), (5.00 / 5) (#9)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 03:02:17 PM EST
    ordered the flags atop the Capitol building to flown at half-staff.  Apparently, the order does not apply to that other flag with the stars and bars flying in front of the building.   Renewed thought might be given to retiring that one to zero-staff.

    Parent
    She is at Least... (none / 0) (#111)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:39:20 AM EST
    ...calling it a hate crime, which is more than most republicans are doing.

    Parent
    Yes, Haley (none / 0) (#134)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 10:43:34 AM EST
    has expressed the crimes as "hate crimes."  Of course, South Carolina is one of the few states that does not have a hate crime law.  But, her sentiment is good.

    Parent
    Here's one explanation (none / 0) (#119)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 09:12:12 AM EST
    Haley's was the first one I saw and I had to quit (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 10:56:57 PM EST
    reading. The old 'we may never know why this happened' line. Well I think most of us will figure this one out Nikki. I have no patience with the BS anymore.

    Parent
    She's (none / 0) (#112)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:41:28 AM EST
    too afraid to actually admit what is going on.

    Parent
    She wants to be governor again (none / 0) (#136)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 10:55:45 AM EST
    And it's a minefield for HER.  Didn't she also support flying the stars and bars as part of her initial campaign, along with of course being BFF with the NRA and relaxing handgun laws.

    When you pair her record with black Americans organizing and fighting abuse, this could all go very badly.

    Parent

    Here is a writing with a video (none / 0) (#147)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 12:26:30 PM EST
    South Carolina: an epicenter of sorts (none / 0) (#6)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 02:48:48 PM EST
    going back to Senator Preston Brooks caning Sen Charles Sumner..the state where, in "bloody Edgefield" County in the 1800s, shooting an N.... in order to see if your new gun worked properly was accepted practice..home state of notorious scalp-collector John Joel Glanton..first state to secede from the Union..home state of Gov "Pitchfork Ben" Tillman and Sen Strom Thurmond's..state where the 1968 Orangeburg massacre happened..

    ..all events Dylann Roof's mentors were busting with private pride over..

    And South Carolina still proudly flies ... (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 03:34:31 PM EST
    ... the Confederate battle flag above its state capitol rotunda, a wholly nonsensical and truly offensive policy which dates back to the civil rights era, when its proponents clearly sought to marginalize people of color socially and politically. (Chris Rock once had some suggestions for its potential replacement.)

    Personally, I consider that flag to be a manifest and supreme symbol of treason, and I find nothing worthy in its continued admiration and use by white Southerners, who to this very day conscientiously and conspicuously fail to understand that the Confederacy's very existence itself constituted a four-year-long crime against humanity:

    "The new [Confederate] constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the 'rock upon which the old Union would split'. He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away.

    "This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The [United States] constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the 'storm came and the wind blew.'

    "Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago.

    "Those at the North, who still cling to these errors, with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics. Their conclusions are right if their premises were. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights with the white man. If their premises were correct, their conclusions would be logical and just but their premise being wrong, their whole argument fails." (Emphasis is mine.)
    - Alexander H. Stephens, Confederate Vice President, "The Cornerstone Speech," Savannah, GA (March 21, 1861)

    Aloha.

    Parent

    NYTimes 2 days ago (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 05:28:50 PM EST
    Despite public anxiety about extremists inspired by Al Qaeda and the Islamic State, the number of violent plots by such individuals has remained very low. Since 9/11, an average of nine American Muslims per year have been involved in an average of six terrorism-related plots against targets in the United States. Most were disrupted, but the 20 plots that were carried out accounted for 50 fatalities over the past 13 and a half years.

    In contrast, right-wing extremists averaged 337 attacks per year in the decade after 9/11, causing a total of 254 fatalities, according to a study by Arie Perliger, a professor at the United States Military Academy's Combating Terrorism Center. The toll has increased since the study was released in 2012.

    Other data sets, using different definitions of political violence, tell comparable stories. The Global Terrorism Database maintained by the Start Center at the University of Maryland includes 65 attacks in the United States associated with right-wing ideologies and 24 by Muslim extremists since 9/11. The International Security Program at the New America Foundation identifies 39 fatalities from "non-jihadist" homegrown extremists and 26 fatalities from "jihadist" extremists.



    Parent
    Meanwhile, Roof's friend Christon Scriven (none / 0) (#11)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 03:03:47 PM EST
    Meanwhile, Roof's friend Christon Scriven, who is black, told the New York Daily News that his friend had told them his plans to for a mass killing.

    'He flat out told us he was going to do this stuff,' said Scriven. But, he said, 'He's weird. You don't know when to take him seriously and when not to.'



    4 of the victims were Reverends. (none / 0) (#15)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 03:12:31 PM EST
    I Don't Even Know How to Process... (none / 0) (#19)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 03:34:21 PM EST
    ...that statement.

    But for a loner, he sure seems to have known a lot of people.

    Parent

    Dylann Roof (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 03:54:12 PM EST
    may be described as a loner, but I believe he (if allegations are true) is not alone.  Racism is not an orphan.  It has an extended family and support groups--e.g., ingrained culture,  right-wing radio talkers, TV blowhards, overt and nuanced hate groups, dog-whistling, and just plain old whistling politicians.  It is not genetic, it is inculcated.  It takes a village.

    Parent
    Well, he's certainly alone now, ... (none / 0) (#21)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 03:38:13 PM EST
    ... given that all his white-wing acquaintances are presently channeling the ghost of Sgt. Schultz in their responses to media inquiries.

    Parent
    I'm with you. (none / 0) (#23)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 03:42:35 PM EST
    iirc, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev also told his friends he knew how to build bombs and was going to become a martyr, or something like that.

    Parent
    Dalton Tyler, who said he has known Roof for seven months to one year, said he saw the white, 21-year-old suspect just last week.

    "He was big into segregation and other stuff," Tyler said. "He said he wanted to start a civil war. He said he was going to do something like that and then kill himself."



    Parent
    Can Scriven and Tyler be charged (2.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Redbrow on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 06:34:02 PM EST
    As accomplices or conspirators?

    They need to be made examples of.

    It seems these young men are more concerned about being a snitch than preventing a drug addled psycho emo hipster from fulfilling his violent murederous fantasies.

    This whole "snitches get stitches" cultural trend needs to end.

    Parent

    No. (5.00 / 4) (#69)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 08:00:00 PM EST
    And you happen to know for a fact that ... (3.00 / 2) (#54)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 07:00:21 PM EST
    ... Dylann Rood is a "drug-addled psycho emo hipster," and further that Christon Scriven and Dalton Tyler are his accomplices / conspirators -- how, exactly?

    People who offer such wildly specious assumptions about others as you do, really have no business accusing anyone of being "drug addled." Indeed, you hardly sound very sober yourself when you talk like that.

    :-(

    Parent

    There is (none / 0) (#60)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 07:30:10 PM EST
    nothing and I mean nothing that I have read that have said anything about him having mental problems. He apparently had a drug problem or was arrested for drugs a few months ago and at one time also had an emo phase but was also very conservative in his views which is probably the most telling.

    Parent
    I am only going by primary sources (none / 0) (#82)
    by Redbrow on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 09:32:42 PM EST
    First hand accounts of people who knew him personally.

    But just go ahead and attack me personally as you always do.

    Parent

    You're repeating hearsay and speculation ... (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 01:21:14 AM EST
    ... from a third party and further presenting it to us as fact, when they are not in evidence. As for your thought to charge two acquaintances of the alleged shooter as possible accomplices or conspirators in order to "send a message," that's not only reckless and irresponsible, but also ugly and repulsive. We are a nation of law, not of men, and we don't target people in our legal crosshairs at whim as a possible means to intimidate others.

    Have a good evening.

    Parent

    "Examples of" (none / 0) (#53)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 06:42:42 PM EST
    do you know they did not tell anyone?  Do you think anything would have been done if they had?  There have been many cases where this kind if stuff has been reported and exactly squat was done.

    Plus this was hardly a secret.  His own father reportedly say he was weird.  If you start locking up all the weird people and those who don't report their weirdness we are going to need more jails.  Also I doubt there is a half assed idiot racist in the country who has not made similar threats.

    They should get a very serious talking to.  Perhaps be forced to meet with families of victims.   Making an example of them seems a bit harsh.

    Parent

    Bernie Sanders... (none / 0) (#36)
    by desertswine on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 04:48:19 PM EST
    It's so deep and wide (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 04:56:33 PM EST
    the idea that Graham and other craven idiots are out there talking about targeting "Christians" is nothing but pandering to racism.  Well, racism and ammosexuality.  His reasons for what he did could not possibly be more clear.  Everyone knows it.  To try to gloss over it, which is exactly what he and others are doing, is IMO in its own way is just as bad as what the stupid punk with the close set eyes did.

    It will lead to more similar acts.  It's vile.

    Parent

    Oh, good lord. (none / 0) (#47)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 06:04:24 PM EST
    Did you read the tweets in response to Sanders' statement?

    It's so obvious what went on but people keep trying to make excuses for the killer. He's mentally ill. Actually no he wasn't mentally ill. He was perfectly sane but just a racist.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#70)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 08:05:19 PM EST
    he probably is mentally ill. In fact I'd say yes he is mentally ill. People that aren't mentally ill don't plan mass murders.

    Parent
    He may also be addicted to (none / 0) (#71)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 08:18:34 PM EST
    illegally-obtained prescription meds per NYT.

    Parent
    I just looked up the drug he was (none / 0) (#100)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:50:54 AM EST
    arrested for, according to the NYT.  Here are the side effects, which, like other drugs in the class of opiates, don't include inducing a murderous rage.

    But of course, since he was obviously a drug addict, we can blame his behavior on drugs anyway.</s>

    Parent

    Suboxone is used to treat opiate (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 11:34:30 AM EST
    addiction.

    Link

    Doctors prescribe Suboxone to treat opiate addiction. Suboxone contains both buprenorphine (an opioid) and naloxone (blocks the effects of opiates). When taken as prescribed, buprenorphine can help people addicted to opiates by eliminating the feeling of being high.

    How?

    Buprenorphine blocks the euphoric effects of drugs like heroin by binding to the same opiate receptors in the brain used by heroin. Thus, people who use buprenorphine are not able to get a high from their original drug of choice (heroin, morphine, OxyContin, etc.). Furthermore, although buprenorphine and depression are not clinically related, brain chemicals affect mood.  So buprenorphine can make you feel better as you detox from opiate addiction.

    My sister-in-law is a contractor with NIDA, working in a research/substance-abuse program at Hopkins, and suboxone is one of the most effective weapons they have for treating addiction to opiates.

    Parent

    Not very likely he's addicted (none / 0) (#144)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 12:14:17 PM EST
    to the stuff, more like he's dealing it, IMHO.

    Parent
    One doesn't generally get addicted to (none / 0) (#149)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 02:47:03 PM EST
    suboxone - dependent, yes, in the sense that if you really want off heroin or oxy or other opiates, suboxone will prevent the high those drugs induce, and help you keep working your program.  

    And I may be wrong, but I think they stopped making the pill form of the drug and now only make the sublingual film; people were crushing/snorting/injecting the pills, which would produce a high - or sometimes death.

    Parent

    Thank you for bringing facts (none / 0) (#150)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 02:53:09 PM EST
    to the table instead of baseless speculation based on a superficial reading of the news.

    Parent
    I did not state that the suspect's possible (none / 0) (#135)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 10:51:27 AM EST
    ingestion of illegally obtained prescription medication(s) caused him to allegedly shoot and kill nine people or that he was allegedly using such substances at any time relevant to his conduct in the Charleston incident.

    Parent
    </s> (none / 0) (#138)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 11:09:49 AM EST
    = sarcasm.

    You're quite welcome.

    Parent

    WAR is mass murder (none / 0) (#88)
    by Palli on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 10:37:08 PM EST
    Since These are Civilians... (none / 0) (#116)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:55:30 AM EST
    ...it would be a war crime.

    Parent
    How about some good news? WIRED (none / 0) (#39)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 05:22:48 PM EST
    THE POPE'S MEMO ON CLIMATE CHANGE IS A MIND-BLOWER

    memo?
    Shrug

    The Pope wants to talk this out.
    There are certain environmental issues where it is not easy to achieve a broad consensus. Here I would state once more that the Church does not presume to settle scientific questions or to replace politics. But I am concerned to encourage an honest and open debate so that particular interests or ideologies will not prejudice the common good.


    When do we start? (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 05:46:41 PM EST
    But I am concerned to encourage an honest and open debate so that particular interests or ideologies will not prejudice the common good.


    Parent
    Well, Jim, you personally can start ... (5.00 / 4) (#46)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 06:02:00 PM EST
    ... by finally being honest with both yourself and others about the subject of climate change, and ceasing to insult everyone's intelligence here with baseless crackpot hackery. And that's the very last thing I'll say to you on this issue.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    As soon as you start ... (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by Yman on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 07:03:08 PM EST
    ... relying on actual scientific studies on climate change, as opposed to silly, wingnut opinion pieces supported by nothing except an overactive imagination.

    Parent
    I see that none of you are willing to start (none / 0) (#86)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 10:30:20 PM EST
    So enjoy your kool aide and remember that consensus is not science.

    The recent Papal Encyclical announced the Catholic Church's decision to join the scientific claims that humans are causing global warming and denounce climate scientists who oppose the claim. It came almost exactly 400 years after Galileo was denounced to the Roman Inquisition in the spring of 1615. The Catholic Church only acknowledged the errors of their actions, their last and most negative brush with science, when they forgave Galileo in 1992. Pope John Paul said labeling Galileo a heretic and confining him to life imprisonment was an error. It only took 377 years for the Church to catch up with reality. No doubt Galileo is delighted, assuming he made it to heaven.

    Unfortunately, the Vatican is not aware that "variations in the earth's orbit and axis" known as the Milankovitch Effect, is not included in the IPCC Reports or their computer models.

    They don't seem to realize that water vapor is by far the most important greenhouse gas.

    The cited paragraph contains all the evidence of the Vatican's lack of understanding of what the IPCC studied. Limitations of IPCC studies were primarily created by the definition of climate change they were given, and they result in the very restricted nature of their conclusions. They seem unaware that all IPCC predictions are wrong. The reality is, if the predictions are wrong, the science is wrong. As a result, the position of the Vatican set out in the Encyclical is a matter of faith, not science. It appears that they are getting burned again, which sadly suggests they didn't learn from history. As Mark 12:17 (King James version) says,

    "And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him."

    Link

    Parent

    Another link from another RW blog (none / 0) (#89)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 10:44:22 PM EST
    Meanwhile, back on planet Earth:

    Alaska's melting glaciers are adding enough water to the Earth's oceans to cover the state of Alaska with a 1-foot thick layer of water every seven years, a new study shows.

    The study found that climate-related melting is the primary control on mountain glacier loss. Glacier loss from Alaska is unlikely to slow down, and this will be a major driver of global sea level change in the coming decades, according to the study's authors.
    (Ed)
    "The Alaska region has long been considered a primary player in the global sea level budget, but the exact details on the drivers and mechanisms of Alaska glacier change have been stubbornly elusive," said Chris Larsen, a research associate professor with the Geophysical Institute at the University of Alaska Fairbanks. Larsen is lead author of the new study accepted for publication in Geophysical Research Letters, a journal of the American Geophysical Union.

    The UAF and U.S. Geological Survey research team analyzed surveys of 116 glaciers in the Alaska region across 19 years to estimate ice loss from melting and iceberg calving. The team collected airborne lidar altimetry data as part of NASA's Operation IceBridge and integrated the new data with information from the 1990s collected by UAF scientist and pilot Keith Echelmeyer.

    They combined the lidar observations with a new mountain glacier inventory that characterizes the size and shape of every glacier in the Alaska region, which includes the glaciers of Alaska, southwest Yukon Territory and coastal northern British Columbia.

    "This large dataset of direct observations enabled a much more detailed assessment and attribution of recent glacier change than previously possible," Larsen said.

    Mountain glaciers hold less than 1 percent of the Earth's glacial ice volume. The rest is held in ice sheets on Antarctica and Greenland. However, the rapid shrinking of mountain glaciers causes nearly one-third of current sea level rise, previous research has shown.

    "Alaska has been identified for years as a big contributor in global sea level rise, but until now we have not had a clear understanding of the processes responsible for the rapid changes of these glaciers," said Shad O'Neel, a co-author of the new paper and geophysicist with the USGS Alaska Science Center in Anchorage.

    The study used the airborne observations to compare the changes of two main types of glaciers: those that end on the land, and those that end in lakes or the ocean, referred to as calving glaciers. Any glacier can lose mass through surface melting, but only those ending in water can lose ice through iceberg calving.



    Parent
    When you understand the (none / 0) (#102)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:59:42 AM EST
    importance of water vapor and sun spots get back to me.

    In the meantime continue to allow yourself to be led by people who are not scientists but use science as a means to establish and push an agenda.

    And please tell me how the MMGW caterwauling meets the requirement of a theory to be a Scientific Theory.

    A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.[1][2][3] As with most (if not all) forms of scientific knowledge, scientific theories are inductive in nature and aim for predictive power and explanatory capability.[4][5]

    Scientific theories are testable and make falsifiable predictions.[6] ....Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge.[4] This is significantly different from the common usage of the word "theory", which implies that something is a conjecture, hypothesis, or guess (i.e., unsubstantiated and speculative).[7]

    What you have is a bunch of studies that have repeatedly failed to meet the most basic of these.

    It is not science but politics in its most ugly form.

    It is laughable to think that the Pope, a dealer in faith with no proof, is now embraced by many people who will accept only MMGW and not the most important part of the Pope's faith.

    'Nuff said. You aren't going to change and breakfast awaits.


    Parent

    Yes, Jim (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by Yman on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 10:59:06 AM EST
    YOU are the judge of the criteria for valid scientific studies.  YOU know better than the thousands of actual scientists and the tens of thousands that review the actual scientific studies.

    Now I'm laughing so  hard I can't eat breakfast ...

    Parent

    Sorry, but water vapor and sunspots (none / 0) (#104)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:11:27 AM EST
    don't explain why glaciers are melting at an unprecedented rate around the world, and your refusal to acknowledge that MMGW incorporates this fact and other into it isn't my problem, it's yours.

    Speaking of facts:

    Man-made global warming is responsible for about 75% of all hot-temperature extremes worldwide in the past 100 years, according to a study published Monday in the British journal Nature Climate Change.

    It is also responsible for about 18% of heavy rainfall, the study said.

    Even worse, climate change will cause higher percentages of extreme weather in future decades. For example, by the middle of this century, if temperatures continue to increase, about 95% of all heat waves -- and about 40% of precipitation extremes -- will be due to human influence.

    Man-made climate change is caused by the burning of fossil fuels such as gas, coal and oil, which release greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, warming the globe to levels that cannot be explained by natural variability.
    (Ed)
    The study's scientists used 25 climate computer models to test their theories. Lead author Erich Fischer, a climate scientist at ETH Zurich, a Swiss university, said the models "agree remarkably well on the change in heavy rainfall and hot extremes at the global scale."

    "The idea that almost half of heavy rainfall events would not have occurred were it not for climate change is a sobering thought for policymakers seeking to mitigate and adapt to climate change," wrote Peter Stott of the United Kingdom's Hadley Centre in a commentary that accompanied the study.

    This research looked only at extreme heat and precipitation. "We do not look at droughts like the one in California or tropical cyclones (hurricanes)," Fischer said. "In fact, we argue that not all kinds of weather necessarily become more extreme."



    Parent
    Thanks, Jim (none / 0) (#174)
    by Yman on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 10:40:28 AM EST
    You never fail to prove my point.  Ignoring thousands of scientific studies that support MMGW (aka "consensus") in favor of an opinion piece from a wingnut blog.

    But if it's all you've got ...

    Parent

    Jim, You are Wrong... (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 09:10:46 AM EST
    ...there are no two way about it.

    Put it funny to see you hold onto the 'Earth is flat' memo even after the catholic church declared it BS.

    The joy I get reading a Fox News viewer let his politics trump his religion is just so sweet.

    Parent

    Scott, the Pope also spoke out against (none / 0) (#152)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 03:30:02 PM EST
    abortion and transgender sex changes.

    Sad to see that you are no longer pro choice.

    Parent

    You can stop watching Faux News (none / 0) (#51)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 06:21:19 PM EST
    and getting misinformed about the subject.

    Researchers observed almost 600 segments across the three outlets where "global warming" or "climate change" was mentioned. Any inaccurate aspects of the coverage were deemed misleading, with Fox News leading that category by leaps and bounds.

    "Fox News covered climate science 50 times in 2013. Of these segments, 28 percent were entirely accurate, while 72 percent included misleading portrayals of the science," the UCS team wrote.

    "More than half of Fox's misleading coverage (53%) was from one program, The Five, where the hosts often instigated misleading debates about established climate science. In general, Fox hosts and guests were more likely than those of other networks to disparage the study of climate science and criticize scientists.



    Parent
    Sad, seething, sad yet again (none / 0) (#40)
    by christinep on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 05:28:27 PM EST
    Gunning down people--9 this time--is more than sad.  Gunning down a group of people while they are at peace and prayer in that sacred space is so far beyond sad that the words may never be found.  

    I've been reading about the Charleston church, the very historic and special AME Church that was invaded by one so full of hate.  What did it take in the mind, formation, and culture of this 21-year old white man to travel a significant distance from Columbia, S.C. to single out this Church.  (Yes, we do not know factually that he did "single out" this Church ... but, why not other places or other places of worship?) The Civil War era congregation of this famous AME Church--so symbolic as a place of unity and freedom--once had to pray in hiding.  Once, this Church was burned to the ground ... only to be rebuilt by dedicated parishioners.  The history of this Church is inextricably bound up with the trials of the Civil War.

    As facts, narrative, snippets of background surface, we can deduce: (1) This particular AME Church, a place central to the Black community, does appear to have been the target as the individual is reported to have driven many miles past many places--past many Christian churches, certainly--to aim for the people in this one. (2) More than one report today states that the suspect spoke about his intent to aim the gun at Black people ... spoke to friends well prior to the shooting slaughter and, reportedly, stated his intent in the Church.  

    As I look at pictures of the suspect, my emotions go back & forth from sad to seething.  The pouty, punky, almost arrogant look shown in photographs bring out my own seething sensation.  For those who remember re-runs of old classics, it is reminiscent of the ugliness of a Dorian Gray ... but with the mutilated ugly on the outside. Looking seconds later, there is this young person with apartheid patches on his clothes and ... whaaat?  If this person did this ugly deed--clearly filled with the racial hate he spouted and wore--you have to ask HOW THE HE!! he could believe those things?  How can any of his fellow travelers believe and hold such hatred?  What feeds it?  Where does it come from?

    Most important, what can and should our society, ourselves, do now?

    In that respect, we probably know fully well that an individual's bigotry and racism are not genetic predispositions, but rather learned traits which are nurtured by family and the immediate community, both consciously and latently.

    Dylann Roof may be many things, but "psycho" and "nuts" -- as not just a few in the white community are now disingenuously insisting for painfully obvious reasons -- are not among them. His actions yesterday were both methodical and deliberate, and highly indicative of someone who was sober, determined and most important of all, fully cognizant of exactly what he was doing at the time he did it.

    Dylann Roof also happens to be one of white South Carolina's own. While I'll not hold that community collectively responsible for what this particular individual decided to do of his own free will, nevertheless they need to own this. And if they refuse to do so of their own accord, we need to make them do it.

    And in that regard, I can only hope and pray that yesterday's tragedy might prompt some serious introspection amongst white southerners about the terribly corrosive issues of racism, discrimination and segregation, which are endemic in their particular region of the country, and which they've allowed to fester for far too long within their own souls.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Last paragraph (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 06:10:48 PM EST
    it won't.  Trust me.

    Parent
    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 06:15:10 PM EST
    It's already being glossed over and none of the underlying problems are being talked about or discussed.

    Parent
    Then I would respectfully refer you to ... (none / 0) (#57)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 07:16:37 PM EST
    ... my third paragraph. They need to own this, and if they refuse, then we need to hang it on them.

    Honestly, I'm beginning to think Gen. Sherman was too far too easy on these people when his Union Army of the Cumberland marched through Georgia and South Carolina in the autumn of 1864 and winter of 1865. They really should have driven the entire lot before them like a bulldozer, and pushed 'em straight into the Atlantic Ocean. It would have saved the rest of us a lot of future grief.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#59)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 07:28:40 PM EST
    first of all getting them to own it.  The people who share this persons belief, and there are plenty, have no problem owning it.  That's the problem.   Second being a southerner, along with Tennesee Williams, Harper Lee and William Faulkner I must take issue with blaming racism and ignorance on the south.

    I said in another comment racism is not a regional problem.  It's not.  Some of the most rabid racists I have ever know lived in Boston and LA..

    So
    We are all unhappy buy dial it back a bit.  K?

    Peace out

    Parent

    IMO (none / 0) (#61)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 07:32:20 PM EST
    it's a sheer numbers thing. They exist everywhere but we just have more of them in the south.

    Parent
    How many places have you lived (none / 0) (#62)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 07:34:59 PM EST
    outside the south?

    Parent
    Put another way (none / 0) (#63)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 07:44:28 PM EST
    i have lived for extended periods of time in
    Chronological order more or less
    St Louis
    Pittsburg
    Kansas City
    NYC
    Houston
    Boston
    LA
    Toronto
    Montreal
    Atlanta

    I encountered racism in every single one of those places.  If you want to talk about rural low information racists.  Yeah, we have a fair number of them in the south.  Are they more dangerous than the educated and wired in ones in the big cities?  Not in my opinion.  Perhaps the opposite.  The politics of the southern red states is not the way it is because we necessarily have more racists but because we have fewer cities and the urban attitudes that come with them.  Atlanta and Houston are in the south.  Neither is a particularly racist place.  

    Parent

    Depends on where (none / 0) (#64)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 07:50:04 PM EST
    you are in Atlanta. If you are in Decatur or in the outer rings. Outer rings yes, pretty bad.

    Chicago and never encountered racism to the extent that I have here in the south.

    Parent

    Chicago (none / 0) (#66)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 07:55:51 PM EST
    forgot about Chicago.  Spent lots of time there in the merchant marine years.  If you never encountered racism there you are probably the first person to be able to say do in the history of the city.

    My older brother lived there until he retired here.  He was one of the most rabid racists I have ever known.

    Parent

    Did not (none / 0) (#74)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 08:49:55 PM EST
    say never just not to the extent I have in the south.

    Parent
    There is a helpful map at this link (none / 0) (#79)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 08:59:30 PM EST
    With all due respect, ... (none / 0) (#91)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 11:05:16 PM EST
    GA6thDem: "[I lived in] Chicago and never encountered racism to the extent that I have here in the south."

    ... you never met members of my father's family in the Chicago area, who all lived in the northwest boondocks on the fringe of the greater metropolitan area, and the rural districts beyond. The all-too-casual racism which emanated from some of them truly scared me when I was younger. Further, racial attitudes in southern Illinois can in many respects be just as bad as those found in the deep South. And during the first part of the 20th century, Indiana's state government was under the sway of the Ku Klux Klan.

    I agree with Howdy in the respect that racism clearly exists in all areas in the country, and that some of it is extraordinarily vile -- with the caveat recognizing that there are so many other factors that also contribute to its existence in other parts of the country outside of the South.

    I won't deny that there's certainly a lot of racism to be found in my old home state of California, and some of it is really and truly awful, especially in the smaller rural communities of the Central Valley from Bakersfield to Redding. And most longtime residents of Los Angeles County, if they're at all honest with themselves, will have to admit that the place was an often notoriously terrible place to live for people of African, Hispanic and Asian descent throughout most of the mid-20th century.

    But in that regard, I think it's also very important to recognize that most everyone currently living in California is actually from someplace else, if within not their own generation, than within only one or two generations removed:

    • When my maternal grandmother was born in Los Angeles in 1902 -- her parents were originally from France and Ireland, and had arrived there as very young children in the early 1880s -- California was home to only 1.4 million residents.
    • When my mother was born in Pasadena in 1934, the state had quadrupled in size to 5.6 million residents.
    • When my father and mother were relocated by the Marines to Camp Pendleton in 1961 when I was five months old, that number had nearly tripled to 15.7 million residents.
    • The first time Jerry Brown was elected governor in 1974, California had grown another 26% to 19.9 million residents.
    • Per last year's U.S. census estimate, the state has effectively doubled in size over the last 40 years to 38.8 million inhabitants.
    • And more people reside today in the greater L.A. metropolitan area -- pop.: 17.9 million -- than had lived in the entire state of California when I was born in Feb. 1961.

    Clearly, as millions of people have moved to the Golden State from their respective states and countries of origin over the decades, they've just as likely brought all their baggage with them -- be it physical, mental and emotional.

    In California's aforementioned Central Valley, many of its white inhabitants are the children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren of the "Grapes of Wrath" generation, the nearly 900,000 former residents of Oklahoma, Texas, Arkansas, Kansas and Nebraska who fled the poverty and famine of the Dust Bowl in the 1930s for what they hoped would be a better life out west. By and large, their noxious attitudes about race migrated with them at that time, and were dutifully passed down to their progeny.  

    Now, with regards to the South itself, we also need to remember the reasons why after the passage of the Voting Rights Act of 1965, the federal government mostly targeted the states which once comprised the former Confederacy for compliance issues regarding our constitutionally guaranteed right to vote.

    (Later on, other areas of the country were eventually cited under the Voting Rights Act for similar compliance issues, including the entire states of Alaska and Arizona and four of New York City's five boroughs. But for the most part, the areas in violation were all individual counties that had specific issues unique to them, and not to their respective states as a whole.)

    The notion of white supremacy, and the corresponding belief of its adherents in the inherent inferiority of non-white peoples, is what ultimately drove those Confederate states to attempt to secede from the Union in the first place.

    Alexander Stephens, erstwhile vice president of the Confederacy, pretty much laid it all out for posterity in his infamous "Cornerstone Speech" of March 1861, which I cited earlier in this thread and from which I quoted some of its most pernicious passages.

    I feel for those like Howdy, who is originally from there and moved back for personal reasons, yet who obviously doesn't share the prevailing racial viewpoints and sentiments of the majority white community in which he lives and once grew up.

    Yes, there are truly some good and decent white folks down south who do not approve, and further have never approved, of the way minority residents have been and are being treated by the majority. But in so doing, they are a distinct minority themselves within their own racial demographic. It simply is what it is.

    We were compelled by the white inhabitants of this region to fight a terribly bloody war with them 150 years ago over the related issues of race and human bondage. More U.S. soldiers died fighting under the U.S. flag against Confederate rebels than against any other country in any other war in our nation's history.

    100 years later during the Civil Rights era, we were later compelled by the Jim Crow policies enacted by southern whites to once again revisit the same issues of race, and we ultimately had to put our foot down on them one more time.

    And given that important issues concerning race relations in the South appear to still be unresolved, I fear that it's only a matter of time before we eventually find ourselves in yet another serious constitutional confrontation with white southerners over their callous treatment of their minority neighbors.

    Just look at how many of their states have rushed to enact tighter voting standards targeting both minority residents and the poor in the wake of SCOTUS's gutting of Section 4 of the Voting Rights Act. Frankly, I'd offer that something desperately needs to change in the South, rather than in my own hardening attitudes toward that region.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Donald (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:50:06 AM EST
    I think you missed my point too. My point is not that there aren't any racists in Chicago. My point is that I never experienced it to the EXTENT i have in the south.

    Secondly I would imagine the outer rings of Chicago are much like the outer rings of Atlanta like where I live. Atlanta itself is not recognized as being that racist but the outer rings can be a whole different story.

    My best friend lived in Southern Illinois for years. I guess you would call it southern. It was outside of Springfield. Anyway she said that she felt like she had moved to a different country when she moved back to Greenville, SC.

    Parent

    Yes, the center of urban Atlanta is very (none / 0) (#115)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:54:22 AM EST
    Liberal and progressive.  I have had to spend a lot of time in the area around Emory.  It's like a Southern vacation to escape the stressful oppression depression of the South. Being from Colorado, gotta say...it is one of the most singularly peculiar experiences I have ever had.

    And I have experience with Roswell residents, and I don't how a ring so close to Atlanta proper could be so racist but two residents of Roswell that I have shown dogs with and who have large working successful kennels have shocked me in their racism.  They truly believe to the core of their being that anyone AA is subhuman.

    Parent

    Roswell (none / 0) (#120)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 09:13:44 AM EST
    I would say is a mix. It has a lot of Hispanics in the area too which presents an interesting mix because the same people that think AA's are subhuman generally think the same thing about Hispanics.

    Parent
    Here also, the view of Hispanics (none / 0) (#124)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 09:27:21 AM EST
    Did you see the Vice episode though?  Alabama did run out all of the Hispanics and the cotton and peanuts started rotting in the fields.  Nobody would do the work last year.  So Alabama legislature has very quietly been rolling those laws back.

    You can't discuss the facts with people around here though, you can't discuss with them that the laws are even being rolled back, because that would mean we need these other human beings desperately :) They have socio/economic value and without them we could all fail.

    Hispanics are slowly returning, but I bet this next crop comes in sporadic and poorly too because they were very affective in forcing Hispanics out.  If you were caught renting to them, serious charges were involved.  

    Parent

    Donald (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:26:45 AM EST
    honestly I think the biggest problem is not that there are no good and compassionate people but that not enough of them vote.  
    In a comment you related a story about a flag in a dorm, I guess.  It reminded me of my own experience with my nephew.  Who is a good kid.  Kind and compassionate.  He was hooked by the "rebel" aspect of the symbol.  But he has spent his whole life with ignorant racists.  Having been mostly raised by his grandparents, my brotherinlaw I've mentioned before being a major force inhibitions life.  He truly did not understand what it really meant.   I caught him repeating things he had heard from him.  As young people often do.  
    He and I talked about race a good deal.  Not an accident on my part.  In the tattoo discussion he trotted out one I have heard before "if not for us, they wouldn't even be here".
    I took that thought apart by explaining what it might have been like to be an African minding your own business to have guys just show up like Planet of the Apes and toss a net over you.  And your family.  And drag them off to the stinking hold of a cargo shit, knee deep with pi$$ and sh!t and kept there for months without seeing the light of day to be brought here and sold like a farm animals to probably never see your family again.
    What part of that was a favor to them?
    I unintentionally moved him to tears.  He got it.  We got high and watched another episode of Weeds and it was all good.
    No tattoo.

    Parent
    Oops unintentional profanity (none / 0) (#108)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:28:32 AM EST
    sorry. It should be cargo SHIP

    sorry.

    Parent

    One more thing (none / 0) (#114)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:52:24 AM EST
    this

    I feel for those like Howdy, who is originally from there and moved back for personal reasons, yet who obviously doesn't share the prevailing racial viewpoints and sentiments of the majority white community in which he lives and once grew up.

    This is wrong.  And it is exactly what I'm a attempting to push back.  It is absolutely NOT the prevailing racial viewpoint.  They, like the tea party, make the most noise and get the most attention so they are a powerful voice but they are, again, NOT the "prevailing voice".  They are just not.  They let their hair down with their buds but they know very well to not say that stuff in polite company.  If they do they are quickly shut down.
    Most people o know are deeply embarrassed by this stuff.  We hate it.  We hate even more that folks like yourself make the assumption that this is the way we all think.  Or even that is the way a majority of us think.  It is not.

    Parent

    Also (none / 0) (#65)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 07:52:02 PM EST
    lived in Central GA and that was one of the worst places I have ever lived as far as racism went. It was horrible.

    Parent
    Look (none / 0) (#68)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 07:59:02 PM EST
    i get there are racists in the south.  I live here.  I have written about it many times here.
    My POINT is racism is not a southern problem.  It is at least a national if not international problem.  I found a surprising number in Canada.

    Parent
    Howdy: It is a universal problem, of course (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by christinep on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 08:42:06 PM EST
    Racism doesn't just exist in South Carolina, of course. Or in the South.

    I keep seeing weather maps when the matter of degree, amount of racism is discussed.  You know how meteorologists denote rain or snow or whatever cells by designated colors ... and the stronger the color the more likely that the rain, snow, tornado will be severe.  IMO--and it is only opinion--the stronger incidents in the persistence of racial division(s) does seem to exist in the old CSA states of the 19th century.  That may be just my northern bias--but, there are certain remnants and indicators and pockets of institutional issues in matters of voting and redistricting, opinion surveys on social attitudes, and backlash against a Black man in the White House.  

    I think we should look at all regional attitudes, yes. In so doing, may I ask:  What is it about the CSA flag ... why do we see so many images of it in the southern region in our country in 2015 ... and, as for S.C., why is the CSA flag still flying?  The flag thing, to be honest, always has a jittery effect on me when I have visited the area.  Why--really--isn't it retired as historical ... what is its message (what message can it only give to young people?)  We northern liberals often mask our own form of "cocktail party" liberalism, and that has to be faced.  But--again, from my northern perspective--when I visited a cousin outside Richmond, Va. a few years ago, the signs and the CSA flags and the huge cache of military history books in the bookstores conveyed a sense of living in the past and/or a convoluted pride in the once-CSA.  Okay...what am I missing here?

    Parent

    Oddly, we watched Blazing Saddles last night (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:19:47 AM EST
    Josh was shocked at how brutally we used to call racism and homophobia out in comedy and art.  We have become more PC about speaking about it and expressing it in different mediums, and I wonder if that actually set us back getting beyond some of it.

    Parent
    You don't just see the CSA flag (none / 0) (#75)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 08:52:23 PM EST
    in the south.  Yes that's where it flies over a statehouse.  That's is not the only place you see it.  My last art director in LA had one tattooed on his shoulder.  Proudly, I might add.  
    He was from New England.

    Parent
    One of the things that surprised me (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by christinep on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 09:10:27 PM EST
    in a weird kind of way when I visited my cousin who had moved a few years ago to the Richmond Va. area was the emphasis on re-creating war battles.  I don't know, Howdy ... the tenaciousness of the Confederacy in the South seems exceptionally strong, in measured opinion and voting attitudes as well as commemorative groups.

    A good friend of mine, who hailed from Mississippi but worked for the feds and went to college and settled first in D.C. and then Denver, still finds it difficult to visit the relatives every few years in Mississippi for the reason that their expressed racial hostility is something hard to take.  She says that they are so steeped in that belief-system--along with the constant companion of Fox on throughout the day--that it feels as if she has travelled back in time.  Her real concern now concerns her 6 yr old grandson--who, as the issue of her white daughter and black son-in-law is beautifully mixed--because she does not want to expose him to the attitude of her relatives.  Rightly or wrongly, she is scared for him.

    Ultimately, I am an optimist.  But first, we all have a lot of work to do about coming to grips with the remnants of pernicious racism.  

    Parent

    You are conflating (none / 0) (#81)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 09:23:29 PM EST
    I personally know people who are deeply into recreating civil war battles who do not have a racist bone in their bodies.  In fact I have one who is black.

    Parent
    I saw a clip from J Stewart last night (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by christinep on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 09:32:15 AM EST
    It said a lot ... he talked about "symbols" and what they might say.

    Parent
    Yep (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 10:01:27 AM EST
    I have a friend who is a re-enactor.  He and his wife (who is not a re-enactor) are some of the most liberal people I know in granola crunchy Arlington, VA.

    He just spent the last four years traveling all over to battles during the 150th commemoration of the Civil War (he re-enacts on both Union and Confederate sides, but has side the Confederate guys have many that are a little too close to 1860's reality, if you know what I mean).  He teaches classes in community ed about Civil War re-enacting.  Lately he has been working with a group of re-enactors that are a regiment of USCT soldiers - that would be "United States Colored Troops".  For him, it's about the history and getting even the tiniest details right - from the weapons, to the uniforms, to the staging of the battles etc. He also has participated in War of 1812 re-enactment in Baltimore and has hosted re-enactors from Canada who work with Revolutionary War and French and Indian War re-enactment groups.

    I also have a friend who plays in the Michigan 4th Regiment re-enactment band - when she isn't dealing with work, her husband, her 4 kids, and her alumni music fraternity business.

    And for people who think it's only for a subsetof people with certain ideas about the Civil War and society at that time, there are also re-enactment groups all over the world who renact everything from the War of the Roses, Viking Wars, the Napoleonic Wars, Roman Empire battles, to WWII.

    Parent

    It is weird though (none / 0) (#130)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 10:18:23 AM EST
    It's like the running of the bulls...why? They spend a fortune on their costumes and their weaponry too.  My FIL bought us a Franklin Mint Civil War chess set.  God knows what he paid for that dusting nightmare :). Nobody has played a single game on it either.  To each his own though

    Parent
    And I want to add (none / 0) (#139)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 11:15:37 AM EST
    That my experiences with war don't involve everybody standing up afterwards and happily attending a BBQ :). Reenacting battles is just really weird to me because uhhhh...it really didn't go down anything like this, big disconnect with reality, kind of glamorizing.

    I would probably feel differently if I inhabited a different space though.  I probably wouldn't have an opinion of any kind.  I would probably equate it with a Rennaisance festival.

    Parent

    I don't get (none / 0) (#141)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 11:28:16 AM EST
    but I don't have to.

    What I do know is that everyone who participates is not a racist.

    To suggest that, which IMO was done. Is uninformed and irresponsible

    Parent

    What happened (none / 0) (#168)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:30:43 PM EST
    at least around in parts of Georgia is that the Sons of Confederate Veterans who did a lot of those reenactments got taken over by white supremacists. Many of the pure history buffs left the organization and I think that is where some of the back rap about reenactments comes from.

    Parent
    We have strange extreme pockets of it (none / 0) (#105)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:16:01 AM EST
    In the South.  For instance, there is a large race cultural difference between Birmingham and Southern Alabama near the Florida panhandle.  Sometimes it's a freakish difference.  

    Parent
    I think (none / 0) (#77)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 08:55:18 PM EST
    you are missing my point because I'm basically agreeing with what you are saying. It's not that the south has a monopoly on racism. They don't. My original point is that there are just more of them down here in sheer numbers or percentages or whatever you want to say.

    And what's really annoying to me is a lot of these people don't think they are racists. They really don't. I think some of them don't even know what a racist is other than it's something "bad" they don't want to be. They don't attribute any of their attitudes or statements to racism. It is really odd.

    Parent

    I Grew up in the Deep North... (none / 0) (#121)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 09:18:34 AM EST
    ...and live in Houston.

    While I saw it in both, the degrees are not anywhere in the ballpark.  The Nword flows out of mouths here so freely and the things people say are truly disturbing.

    Where as in Wisconsin, it was more like when people call Poles, pollacks, it's there, but its missing that engrained deep seeded hatred that drives people to actually do things.  

    Parent

    It (none / 0) (#58)
    by FlJoe on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 07:23:19 PM EST
    will get lip service for a cycle of two, probably through the Sunday morning gas bag parade. Another "teachable moment" crosses the national radar like some random natural disaster. The wise, the foolish and the evil will all agree to agree that "something" "must" be done, while they all implicitly concede that nothing will be done. Class dismissed!

    Parent
    The killing was not about religion (none / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 05:52:27 PM EST
    The killing was about hate.

    And hate and religion do share a common anything.

    Why he did it needs to be, and will be, explored.

    Gods grace to the families and friends of the victims.

    typo correction (none / 0) (#87)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 10:32:28 PM EST
    And hate and religion do not share a common anything.


    Parent
    I (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:32:13 AM EST
    think you were correct the first time.

    Parent
    I understand your point but if (none / 0) (#97)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:27:33 AM EST
    religion teaches hate then it is the wrong religion.

    To me one of the most important lessons from the NT is to hate the sin but love the sinner. That is the basis of tolerance and tolerance is the bed rock of diversity. In a multi cultural society you must have these things.

    Parent

    People use religion to teach and (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:44:44 AM EST
    justify the hate that resides within themselves. They use it to justify their intolerance, and keep their minds closed.  They read missions and directives to harm others in the same religious books that others use to preach peace and tolerance and non-violence.

    The books are the same; the difference is in the people.

    Parent

    Also (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:58:02 AM EST
    if a religion teaches love but ends up condoning  or even promoting hate then that religion must also be the "wrong" religion. Sorry Jim but all the Abrahamic religions have serious blood on their hands, all driven by hatred of the "other".

    Parent
    You are correct if you want to (none / 0) (#126)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 09:43:40 AM EST
    use just the Old Testament. I would also include the Koran but I don't want bring Islam, although you do, into the discussion.

    The OT is a historical document with many predictions, parables and commands. Many good and some bad.

    Christians are not under Mosaic law. The OT was fulfilled with the birth, life, death, resurrection and ascension of Christ.

    So the "religion" taught by the NT does not teach "hate."

    the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

    a particular system of faith and worship.

    The "hate the sin but love the sinner" often comes into play because it is a trigger that nuts hang their hats on... they forget the love part.

    But, without a baseline you don't have a religion. What you have is situation ethics which leads to the strongest setting the rules. IOW, minorities are suppressed.

    Parent

    Many Christanists (none / 0) (#129)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 10:02:17 AM EST
    use the OT to justify their stance on gay rights, etc., so pretending that they don't exist doesn't make much sense, IMHO.

    Parent
    I'm not sure were you are going there (none / 0) (#154)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 03:40:07 PM EST
    but yes, some Christians use the OT to justify their stance on gay rights and other issues.

    But that doesn't mean that they are right nor does it mean the OT isn't fulfilled as I noted.

    Parent

    They exist and (none / 0) (#157)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 03:53:28 PM EST
    despite not conforming to your ideas about Christian theology(esp. Matt 5:18) they are the face of the antiGay opposition to same-sex marriage in his country.

    Sounds like you're like the moderate Muslims are with the ISIS terrorists who call themselves Muslims.

     You're not willing to confront the problems extremist, heretical Christianists are causing our society.

    Parent

    Thanks for bringing Mat 5:18 up (none / 0) (#160)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 04:26:26 PM EST
    For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

    Christ was a man. With his death, everything to him did disappear. It was brought back when he was resurrected and ascended. Everything was accomplished. He had taken our sins on Himself and given us a way to be saved.

    Comparing Christians who call homosexual acts a sin with ISIS who stone and behead homosexuals is somewhat a reach don't ya think?? Me??? As I noted on "sins" that don't directly harm someone I just ignore and let God judge. And I have no problem explaining that to friends and acquaintances who dis homosexuals while ignoring heterosexual fornication.  

    And since you seem to want to condemn Christians, I am sure you will reject the pope's encyclical since it condemns abortion and transgender sex changes. And no, I pay no attention to the Pope on any subject. I am not Catholic and salvation is not a group activity.

    Now keep on finding something to disagree with and respond so that you can later complain about blog clogging.

    lol

    Parent

    Until heaven and earth disappear (none / 0) (#162)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 04:31:06 PM EST
    Last time I checked, those two entities are still in existance.

    Glad to correct your understanding of the matter.

    Parent

    Try reading what I wrote (none / 0) (#173)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 10:29:39 AM EST
    Christ was a man. With his death, everything to him did disappear. It was brought back when he was resurrected and ascended. Everything was accomplished. He had taken our sins on Himself and given us a way to be saved.


    Parent
    Jim, theology isn't one of your core (none / 0) (#181)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 12:51:25 PM EST
    competencies.

    And, note the context of Matt 5:19:

    Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches other shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Which seems to go against your interpretation.

    I suggest you consult with your spiritual leader or minister if you have one.  


    Parent

    Unless Christians believe we're (none / 0) (#151)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 03:22:29 PM EST
    under Mosaic Law..

    Which apparently many do.

    Your fellow conservative Ralph Reed being exhibit A.

    Parent

    jondee makes a false claim again (none / 0) (#153)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 03:35:27 PM EST
    And I have no idea that Reed believes what you claim.

    And neither do you.

    See Commandment No 9.

    lol

    Parent

    The Duggar family (none / 0) (#98)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:37:48 AM EST
    comes to mind when one is talking about the intersection of religion and hate.

    The bill, which passed early on Wednesday morning after almost 10 hours of public debate, prohibits discrimination by businesses and landlords based on, among other criteria, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity or gender expression. But earlier in the week, matriarch and reality star Duggar sent out a profoundly misleading robocall about "some shocking news that would affect the safety of Northwest Arkansas women and children." In it, she went on to assert that the ordinance "would allow men - yes, I said men - to use women's and girls' restrooms, locker rooms, showers, sleeping areas and other areas that are designated for females only" and stated, "Males with past child predator convictions [could] claim they are female to have a legal right to enter private areas that are reserved for women and girls. I doubt that Fayetteville parents would stand for a law that would endanger their daughters or allow them to be traumatized by a man joining them in their private space." And she asked, "Parents, who do you want undressing next to your daughter at the public swimming pool's private changing area?" Yes, it's true; everything transgender people are fighting for is the right of child molesters to take off their pants in front of your daughters.(Ed)

    And, no, this isn't the fault of the founder of Christianity, any more than GM is at fault if someone uses a Cadillac or other car they produce for a getaway after a bank robbery.

    Parent

    This from the same woman who (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:48:06 AM EST
    allowed her son's molestation of his sisters and others to be covered up - and once the molestation was revealed, acted as if it was no big deal.

    Let me tell you - the idea that all the children she brought into the world are going to go forth and multiply, taking with them the kind of thinking and teaching reflected in Michelle Duggar's fear-mongering, makes my blood run cold.

    Parent

    I Assume You Mean Christians... (none / 0) (#122)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 09:22:44 AM EST
    ...as you have pretty much declared the Muslim religion a hateful one.

    More importantly, have you been sleeping during the gay marriage debate, because all I see is hate and religion intertwined.

    Ever hear of Fred Phelps, or is he not a religios person ?

    Parent

    I try to be careful when I write about Islam (none / 0) (#131)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 10:19:33 AM EST
    You will note that I use the term "radical islamist" to define the actions of a group of Muslims that, to drastically understate, do not represent the majority.

    The question is, who will bring the radical islamists under control and when will they do it? This brings into the question, are there moderate Muslims and if so, why haven't they acted? I have no answer. I believe there is a large majority of moderates but we can see that they aren't acting.

    And no, I haven't been sleeping re gay marriage. I have commented numerous times I support gay rights including gay marriage.  My position is simple. On sins that do not hurt people I say we should let God sort things out. It ain't my job.

    But I do wonder how many of the Nanny State legions are closet radical Christians....given that many Christians are driven to protect us from sins against our bodies and souls... (sarcasm alert)

    Is Phelps a religious person? No more so than the High Priest of the Aztecs who joyfully cut out hearts of living persons.

    It is the content, not the name that is important. A more accurate question would be, is Pheps a Christian?

    And the answer is, obviously, no.

    Parent

    After (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:44:20 PM EST
    mangling science, history and logic, now you move on to theology, oy vey!

    You seem to have declared yourself the decider on who is a Christian and who is not. In your quest to prove that Muslims are uniquely able to do evil in the name of their religion you casually excommunicate A-holes like Phelps from Christianity.

    Let me clue you in Phelps does not consider you a Christian either and I take it he is an "ordained" minister. Why should I take your word over his?

     

    Parent

    Actually I haven't (none / 0) (#177)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 11:12:21 AM EST
    excommunicated anyone from anything.

    officially exclude (someone) from participation in the sacraments and services of the Christian Church.

    I have merely noted that by his acts he is not a Christian.

    You really should understand the meaning of words before you use them.

    And I have never claimed that Muslims are unique in their ability to do evil in the name of religion.

    But I do point out that in the here and now it is the radical islamists who are killing thousands who do not believe as they do.

    Why you seem unwilling to admit that is a mystery to me.

    Parent

    Once (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by FlJoe on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 03:35:53 PM EST
    again you unilaterally declare
    that by his acts he is not a Christian.
    In other words in your mind you have 'excluded" him from the faith.

    I could just as easily declare "ISIS are not Muslim because of their actions". See that was easy, but of course wrong (at least it's not my call).

    In my book Westboro Baptist are Christians using their religion to spread their hate just as ISIS are Muslims doing the same. Same old game.

     

    Parent

    Uh, you can make up things all you want (none / 0) (#189)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 08:36:14 PM EST
    but the fact is that I cannot excommunicate anyone.

    Your problem is that, along with Christians and Jews, ISIS is killing other Muslims and declaring that they want an Islamic Caliphate.

    See the difference?


    Parent

    If (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by FlJoe on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 09:00:32 PM EST
    you can not excommunicate anyone then you must accept the fact that Phelps and his merry gang are Christians.  
    Your problem is that, along with Christians and Jews, ISIS is killing other Muslims and declaring that they want an Islamic Caliphate.
    My problem?  It's the World's problem, everybody killing everybody over matters of faith. It's a terrible thing no matter who happens to be current champion.

    There are plenty of people insisting that this country is a "Christian" nation that should ruled by biblical law. I don't see much difference, in theory at least, between them and ISIS creating their own to  to rule with Sharia law.


    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#196)
    by Yman on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 09:11:14 AM EST
    There are Christian groups calling  for a "Christian nation".  Now YOU may say they are not Christian, but there are many moderate Muslims also claiming ISIS does not represent Islam.

    Next.

    Parent

    If you knew some more facts (none / 0) (#132)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 10:22:51 AM EST
    that might help:

    Last Updated Sep 26, 2014 3:00 PM EDT

    PARIS -- In tweets, in street gatherings and in open letters, moderate Muslims around the world are insisting that the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) extremists don't speak for their religion. Many are also frustrated that anyone might think they do, and a backlash has already begun.

    This week's videotaped beheading of a French mountaineer by militants linked to ISIS prompted heartsick fury among Muslims in France and elsewhere in Europe, torn between anger at the atrocities committed in the name of Islam and frustration that they have to defend themselves at all.

    Herve Gourdel was the fifth Western hostage decapitated in recent weeks by Islamic extremists - this time, the militants said, as revenge for France's decision to join airstrikes against ISIS.

    "He was the victim of a cowardly murder," Dalil Boubakeur, rector of the Grand Mosque of Paris, told hundreds of Muslims Friday, according to Reuters. "Islam demands respect of life ... The Koran tells us that to kill one man is to kill all humanity," he said.

    You're quite welcome.

    Parent

    Unfortunately the so-called moderate Muslims (2.00 / 1) (#156)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 03:50:36 PM EST
    have a slim resume when it comes to condemning the radical islamists and an even smaller list of actual  accomplishments.

    I say that many Muslim women are puzzled and stuck in the middle. On one hand they are told to obey and on the other they see the so-called women's rights groups in America and the west doing nothing. In the meantime they are denied an education, stoned, killed for polluting the honor of the family, forced into arranged marriages and have their genitals circumcised.

    I think it follows all the way down. Your average working Joe Muslim watches the radicals say and do things yet the US government hardly calls the radicals out.

    That doesn't give the moderates a great feeling about resisting the radicals.

    Parent

    You're just not paying attention (none / 0) (#158)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 03:57:30 PM EST

    While it is true that there are some Muslims who remain silent either out of fear for their own lives or that of loved ones, the full truth is that Muslims aren't as silent on this issue as the West portrays them to be. There are Muslims who bravely speak out against terrorism, yet their voices don't reach the western media. For example, a group of Moroccans have posted a video on the internet recently where they have declared that terrorist organizations like ISIS, Jabhat Al Nusra, Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah and the Islamic Jihad don't represent them. The name of the video is titled "Not in my name" and includes Moroccan men and women from all age groups. It was translated into English by MEMRI.

    In the video, a young man declared, "Torturing the innocent is barbarism." Another young man states, "Our religion commands us to help one another," while still another one stresses, "Islam is freedom and respect." Even little boys participate, declaring, "Islam is the religion of my forefathers. Islam is good conduct and moral values." A little girl emphasizes, "Islam means to love one another." An old woman wearing a hijab proclaims, "Islam is a religion that requires good conduct in practice." It concludes with a young man stating, "The youth say no to terrorism."

    A group of British Muslims performed a similar "Not in my name" campaign to take a stand against terrorism perpetrated by radical Islamists and posted their statements to YouTube. A British Muslim woman wearing a hijab proclaimed: "ISIS does not represent Islam or any Muslim. We must all unite together and try to stop this group from damaging Islam and damaging Muslims because my religion promotes tolerance for women and you have no respect for women." Another British Muslim accused ISIS of being un-Islamic, because they kill innocent people. Still another one proclaimed that their Caliphate does not represent the Umma, while another one emphasized that what ISIS is doing is inhumane.

    Earlier this week, JerusalemOnline reported that Amazigh activist poet Malika Mazen also condemned ISIS and other Islamist groups: "They use religion to get little girls in order to satisfy their urges. If you really perform jihad for the sake of Allah, you should respect your manliness and your religion rather than use it as an opportunity to get little girls. Be a mujahid for the sake of jihad not sex you dog! These people are wolves! These people are dogs!"

    In an interview that JerusalemOnline conducted with Pakistani Muslim human rights activist Kasim Hafeez, he warned what would happen because of the Obama administration's policy of not intervening in Iraq and Syria: "Firstly, we will see genocide and the systematic eradication of people simply because they are `different.' Secondly, it shows ISIS that they can butcher innocents in full view of the world and the world will not do a thing to intervene." Kasim noted: "they are emboldened by every excess they are able to push without a response. Their potential is limitless." He led a campaign for Bnai Brith Canada raising awareness about the letter "N" that was displayed on Christian homes in Iraq in areas that ISIS controls.

    A Syrian Kurdish leader proclaimed to JerusalemOnline: "The airstrikes are not stopping ISIS." Syrian Kurdish leader Sherkoh Abbas concurred on Fox News: "The West is not really doing enough to stop these people by arming the Kurds. The Kurds are the only people in this region that can stop ISIS and I think they should be supported. It's a joke doing these minor strikes to be honest because ISIS is concentrated on defeating us, so taking out two tanks or three armored vehicles when they have hundreds as well as more sophisticated weapons is not an even fighting. The U.S. needs to intensify the airstrikes and to coordinate with the Kurds."

    As we speak, Kurds are on the front lines risking their lives fighting against ISIS and most of them are Muslim. They continue to fight bravely even though they are not receiving sufficient support from the West, which so far prefers to help groups linked to the Muslim Brotherhood instead. It is time for the West to listen to and support moderate Muslims struggling against ISIS and other terror organizations.

    Link

    Needless to say, you won't find this on Fox Noise.

    No charge for the lesson.  👽

    Parent

    Let me know when (none / 0) (#163)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 04:32:03 PM EST
    the moderates are demonstrating in NYC demanding that we help the Kurds.

    Let me know when the moderates are leaving home in comparable numbers to ISIS and joining the Kurds.

    Let me know when Jordan and Egypt start accepting thousands of Palestinian refugees...

    Etc., etc., etc.

    Parent

    Let me know ... (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by Yman on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 11:14:19 AM EST
    ... when you receive the appointment annointing you as the one who determines the standard of acceptable opposition for moderate Muslims.

    Parent
    Norway, (none / 0) (#165)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 04:53:12 PM EST

    STOCKHOLM (AP) -- Norway's prime minister and other politicians have joined Muslim leaders and thousands of other people for a demonstration in Oslo against radical Islamists.

    Monday's rally was an initiative by young Norwegian Muslims who wanted to show a united front against Islamic State militants in Syria and Iraq and their sympathizers in Norway.

    Mehtab Afshar, head of the Islamic Council in Norway, told the crowd: "They stand for terrorism, they stand for terror ... and we condemn that in the strongest terms."

    A small radical group in Norway has expressed support for Islamic State militants, angering moderate Muslims in immigrant communities in the country.

    According to the Norwegian security service at least 50 people have left Norway to become foreign fighters for militant groups in Syria.

    Link

    Oklahoma

    Oklahoma Muslim Day at the Capitol" was organized by the Oklahoma chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) and supported by the Interfaith Alliance of Oklahoma, whose members helped escort attendees into the Capitol and past the protesters.

    "The protesters outside are protesting all that America is about - the freedom of expression," said Tariq Sattar, board member for CAIR Oklahoma.

    "It doesn't matter what religion you are, you should be able to have freedom," Sattar said.

    A few lawmakers in the socially conservative state have previously made statements against Muslims, including Republican Representative John Bennett, who has said Islam is "a cancer in our nation that needs to be cut out."

    That they don't do it 24/7 is no doubt something you find distressing, but they're there.  It took real b*alls to demonstrate in OK, YMMV.

    Glad to clear that up for you.

    Parent

    All show and no go (none / 0) (#175)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 10:58:43 AM EST
    an occasional meeting by a few "leaders" doesn't reach the level.

    And CAIR's opposition to the OK law that banned Sharia law in OK speaks for itself.

    Parent

    Still waiting for some truth from you (none / 0) (#182)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 12:58:11 PM EST
    Jim..

    Unconstitutional ban

    "The proposed amendment discriminates among religions," said the judges. "The Oklahoma amendment specifically names the target of its discrimination. The only religious law mentioned in the amendment is Sharia law."

    A federal judge last summer had issued a temporary restraining order in favor of the Council of American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), which had sued to nullify the law completely.

    The amendment would require Oklahoma courts to "rely on federal and state law when deciding cases" and "forbids courts from considering or using" either international law or Islamic religious law, known as Sharia, which the amendment defined as being based on the Quran and the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed.

    And why are people like you terrified if laws like this aren't passed?

    Saleem Quraishi, president of the American Muslim Association of Oklahoma City, runs the Islamic Center at the Grand Mosque of Oklahoma City. He said there are more than 5,000 Muslims in the city. While there are no exact numbers for the Muslim population in the state, it is not among the larger communities, said Ibrahim Hooper of CAIR.

    "It's just fear-mongering; it's nothing," Quraishi told CNN. "What's Sharia law have to do with Oklahoma?"

    The Oklahoma controversy stems from a New Jersey legal case in which a Muslim woman went to a family court asking for a restraining order against her spouse, claiming he had raped her repeatedly. The judge ruled against her, saying that her husband was abiding by his Muslim beliefs regarding spousal duties. The decision was later overruled by an appellate court, but the case sparked a nationwide firestorm. The issue spread to Oklahoma, prompting the ballot initiative

    Glad to set the facts straight for you.

    Parent

    The facts are as I wrote (1.00 / 1) (#190)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 08:45:19 PM EST
    Ah yes, that great defender of the US constitution and un indicted  co-conspirator, CAIR, should always be looked at for guidance......

    Look, if CAIR was against Sharia law in the US they wouldn't have opposed a law blocking Sharia law in the US.

    Neither would have the other "leaders."

    Undoubtedly "Moderates all."

    Parent

    Uh, you forgot the 1st Amendment (none / 0) (#191)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 08:52:33 PM EST
    protects us from Sharia law, Jim, just as it protects Christian ministers from having to officiate at same-sex marriages,

    Let's look at the record:

    I linked to a news article about it, you bring nothing but slander and falsehoods.  What about the ACLU, I suppose they want Sharia law in this country as well?

    The facts are in the article, not as you wrote them.

    Glad to clear that up for everyone.

    Parent

    The First Amendment does what??? (none / 0) (#194)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 08:51:33 AM EST
    Well, one method of debate is to make such outrageously wrong statements that they change the subject.

    This is not about the First Amendment. No where have I written that anyone can't say what they want.

    Let's again review the facts that you have given us.

    a Muslim woman went to a family court asking for a restraining order against her spouse, claiming he had raped her repeatedly. The judge ruled against her, saying that her husband was abiding by his Muslim beliefs regarding spousal duties.

    The point was simple. CAIR, and other Muslim leaders, opposed a law that if this happened in OK the victim would not have to wait for an appeals court to rule. I can only hope that, in the NJ case, the woman was not repeatedly raped while waiting for the wheels of justice to turn.

    The second, and most important point is this.

    People do not oppose something that they are against. The OK law said no Sharia. CAIR and the others opposed it.

    Parent

    The First Amendment does what??? (none / 0) (#195)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 08:51:33 AM EST
    Well, one method of debate is to make such outrageously wrong statements that they change the subject.

    This is not about the First Amendment. No where have I written that anyone can't say what they want.

    Let's again review the facts that you have given us.

    a Muslim woman went to a family court asking for a restraining order against her spouse, claiming he had raped her repeatedly. The judge ruled against her, saying that her husband was abiding by his Muslim beliefs regarding spousal duties.

    The point was simple. CAIR, and other Muslim leaders, opposed a law that if this happened in OK the victim would not have to wait for an appeals court to rule. I can only hope that, in the NJ case, the woman was not repeatedly raped while waiting for the wheels of justice to turn.

    The second, and most important point is this.

    People do not oppose something that they are against. The OK law said no Sharia. CAIR and the others opposed it.

    Parent

    Unfortunately, your claims are complete BS (none / 0) (#178)
    by Yman on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 11:12:35 AM EST
    Unfortunately the so-called moderate Muslims have a slim resume when it comes to condemning the radical islamists and an even smaller list of actual  accomplishments.

    This is ridiculous.  Moderate Muslims condemn the radical terrorists all the time.  The fact that you don't want to believe it (or just make up these BS claims) is your problem.

    I say that many Muslim women are puzzled and stuck in the middle. On one hand they are told to obey and on the other they see the so-called women's rights groups in America and the west doing nothing.

    Do tell, Jim ... women's rights groups (actual, as opposed to "so-called") are constantly advocating for women's rights in Muslim countries.  What would you expect them to do?  They don't possess nuclear weapons or an army, so your only, go-to option of killing them all or sending other people to fight a war for you is off the table.

    Parent

    Unfortunately the so-called moderate Muslims (none / 0) (#155)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 03:50:36 PM EST
    have a slim resume when it comes to condemning the radical islamists and an even smaller list of actual  accomplishments.

    I say that many Muslim women are puzzled and stuck in the middle. On one hand they are told to obey and on the other they see the so-called women's rights groups in America and the west doing nothing. In the meantime they are denied an education, stoned, killed for polluting the honor of the family, forced into arranged marriages and have their genitals circumcised.

    I think it follows all the way down. Your average working Joe Muslim watches the radicals say and do things yet the US government hardly calls the radicals out.

    That doesn't give the moderates a great feeling about resisting the radicals.

    Parent

    Phelps is Without a Doubt, Christian... (none / 0) (#161)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 04:28:45 PM EST
    ...as is all the others who practice hate and pray to the same god and read the text as you.  Phelps thinks he's going to same place you think you are going to when dead.

    The idea that Christians aren't hateful is true so long as disqualify the vast number of hate-filled ones, yourself included, or did god tell you its OK to kill children being used as shields.

    You may find gay marriage OK, but your religion does not, and my comments were about your religion, not you.

    And you are careful now, but you weren't for a very long time.  You considered all Muslims one in the same and I suspect you still do, but don't hear.  At least that is what I have seen on your blog.

    Parent

    Scott, your grasp of logic is loose today (2.00 / 1) (#166)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 05:25:47 PM EST
    People are not what they call themselves. They are what they do. Phelps can believe what he wants but that doesn't mean he is going to heaven or that he is a Christian.

    And you know that.

    "My religion" doesn't find many things "okay." That doesn't mean that millions don't find much good in it and that it doesn't improve human actions. I find that most atheists don't understand because they don't really study enough to understand that much of the NT is also the history of the early church and the struggle to adapt Christ's teachings.

    The question of children and adults who are being used as human shields by an enemy who is attacking us raises a moral question.

    If I fail to take all possible steps to protect everyone who is depending on me for protection, am I not guilty of their murder? Should I let them die because I have let my enemy hide behind non combatants??

    Isn't the enemy who uses them guilty?

    Tell me, did you ever talk to one of your pilots about their dropping ordnance on civilian targets? What do you think about that? Did you condemn them?

    Scott, you don't like my politics but you just make things up. I challenge you to prove your claims. In the meantime here's an almost 5 year old post

    I suspect that the real difference is in what I regard as moderate and what you regard as moderate.

    Parent

    Good point, Jim (5.00 / 2) (#180)
    by Yman on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 11:16:35 AM EST
    People are not what they call themselves. They are what they do.

    Some people refer to themselves as "social liberals" and "independents", then spend decades supporting conservative Republicans.

    Parent

    Scott, your grasp of logic is loose today (none / 0) (#167)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 05:25:47 PM EST
    People are not what they call themselves. They are what they do. Phelps can believe what he wants but that doesn't mean he is going to heaven or that he is a Christian.

    And you know that.

    "My religion" doesn't find many things "okay." That doesn't mean that millions don't find much good in it and that it doesn't improve human actions. I find that most atheists don't understand because they don't really study enough to understand that much of the NT is also the history of the early church and the struggle to adapt Christ's teachings.

    The question of children and adults who are being used as human shields by an enemy who is attacking us raises a moral question.

    If I fail to take all possible steps to protect everyone who is depending on me for protection, am I not guilty of their murder? Should I let them die because I have let my enemy hide behind non combatants??

    Isn't the enemy who uses them guilty?

    Tell me, did you ever talk to one of your pilots about their dropping ordnance on civilian targets? What do you think about that? Did you condemn them?

    Scott, you don't like my politics but you just make things up. I challenge you to prove your claims. In the meantime here's an almost 5 year old post

    I suspect that the real difference is in what I regard as moderate and what you regard as moderate.

    Parent

    Good piece (none / 0) (#49)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 06:13:59 PM EST
    about the murders in Charleston that a friend of mine who is a priest linked to on facebook link

    It's in the Washington Post of all places.

    Very good article (none / 0) (#83)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 09:38:32 PM EST
    And I would say she has all her facts right and comes to a completely wrong conclusion.

    It's time to stop arguing over whether to label someone a terrorist. And enough with arguing whether something is or isn't a hate crime. It's murder. No more, no less.

    Parent

    Exactly so (none / 0) (#84)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 09:41:13 PM EST
    the terrorism thing has been setting my teeth on edge

    Parent
    Agreed. (none / 0) (#92)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jun 18, 2015 at 11:23:53 PM EST
    But for that to happen, there are some on the right who will need to stop stoking fears about the Muslims and people of color who reside amongst us.

    The author is simply arguing that if the prevailing standard is allowed to continue in place, by which Muslims and people of color are collectively placed under suspicion by the white majority for the acts of a demented few, then it's only fair that the tragedy of Charleston be similarly labeled an act of "white terrorism."

    The article is entirely logical in its presentation, and yet it's offering a conclusion that can really only exacerbate domestic racial tensions, rather than alleviate them. "Tit for tat" is not the answer here.

    We would probably all do well to dial it back a notch or two, take a few deep breaths, and start channeling the better angels of our nature.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Terrorism (none / 0) (#103)
    by Steve13209 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:01:38 AM EST
    Connecting domestic killings with terrorism may serve to expand the definition of terrorism to just about any illegal act OR make people realize that doing that is just not productive.

    Part of me wants to connect the single-mindedness the Govt has about terrorism to the gun violence epidemic.

    Parent

    That idea has a seductive quality (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 05:57:45 PM EST
    but I fear that particular can of worms.  It seems to invite endless open ended war.

    Personally I would rather see things like the marathon bombing and various "terrorist" acts treated as law enforcement issues.  We have plenty of laws to deal with it.

    Parent

    Either (none / 0) (#117)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 09:07:41 AM EST
    terrorism exists as a thing or it doesn't.
    This crime seems to fit the definition
    : the use of violent acts to frighten the people in an area as a way of trying to achieve a political goal
    to a tee.

    Surely there are acts of terror committed in the name of an "ism", apparently racism in this case and jihadism in the case of Isis  et al, but the use of the word terrorism implies that the crimes themselves are an ideology rather then crimes used as a tool to push the underlying beliefs of the individual person or organization.

    Parent

    a different zimmerman (none / 0) (#146)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 12:17:12 PM EST
    here in seattle where I read the local news every day . . .

    I see that a different Zimmerman is having some difficulty with a prosecutor . . . the prosecutor says that Mr. zimmerman has been raping his life-size toddler doll . . . in addition to spread child pornography on twitter . . .

    The defendant has . . . essentially crafted a child-sized rape doll,"

    He may not be getting a teaching certificate very soon . . .

    All of a sudden (none / 0) (#148)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 01:34:39 PM EST
    this song now makes a lot more sense: John Hiatt - Take It Down

    COURT (none / 0) (#170)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:30:02 PM EST

    Court has received largely positive reviews in the international film festival circuit. In his Venice review, Variety's Weissberg further wrote: "Outdated, elephantine courts are an easy target, yet it's the way Tamhane coolly exposes the flaws that renders the film so powerful, making clear that the problem isn't simply with what's on the books, but also with the people pedantically interpreting them."[12] Neil Young of The Hollywood Reporter reviewed the film at Antalya, stating: "Mumbai's Chaitanya Tamhane emerges as one of the world's most accomplished and promising film-makers under 30 with his quietly steely legal drama Court, a bluntly-titled chronicle of politically-motivated injustice."[13] In French publication Le Monde, Jacques Mandelbaum called Court "a major movie on the worrying state of freedom of speech in the Indian democracy" and lauded the "intelligence and sensitivity" of Tamhane's direction.[14]

    It also received five-star reviews from London-based indie film site Dog And Wolf[15] and Spanish film site El antepenúltimo mohicano;[16] and four-star reviews from British blogs Cine-Vue and CultureFly.[17][18]

    LINK

    I just watched the GoTs finale again (none / 0) (#185)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 06:02:05 PM EST
    i think the "walk of shame" could be useful in our current political environment.   It would satisfying to see Ted Cruz stripped and marched down Pennsylvania Ave to the jeering of crowds

    End of season 1 of Hannibal (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by ruffian on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 07:43:20 PM EST
    He sure is a meanie!

    Parent
    Great cook though (none / 0) (#188)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jun 20, 2015 at 07:53:31 PM EST
    Limbaugh's Long Deserved Decline and Fall (none / 0) (#199)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 10:41:43 AM EST
    Another demotion, another step toward irrelevancy.  

    The good news for Rush Limbaugh: One month after being notified he was getting dumped by his Boston talk radio host station, the talker has a new AM home in the city.

    The bad news: The station currently boasts a 0.6 rating, trails four non-commercial stations in the market, and becomes yet another big-city, cellar-dwelling outpost that Limbaugh is forced to call home.

    The station, WKOX, is the type of "bottom-rung" affiliate that Limbaugh was rarely associated with during his halcyon days as the king of talk radio. But those days seem to be dwindling as the Boston fall from grace has previously played out for Limbaugh in places like Los Angeles and Indianapolis. In each instance, Limbaugh exited a prosperous, longtime radio home and was forced to settle for an also-ran outlet with miniscule ratings.



    Has he improved the ratings of the also-ran outlet (none / 0) (#201)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 10:44:51 AM EST
    Bad cases make bad law (none / 0) (#202)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 11:00:22 AM EST
    Jim.  If you don't understand how the 1st Amendment works, and you're so sure of yourself that you double-post, you've just demonstrated that a discussion isn't what you want.

    Have a good day.

    True Detective (none / 0) (#203)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 04:07:39 PM EST
    heads up.

    New season starts tonight with the promisingly titled episode The Western Book Of The Dead.

    Ah, I must have hit some nerves (none / 0) (#205)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jun 21, 2015 at 10:10:20 PM EST
    Mordiggian, you may want to say that the First Amendment protects political speech, and it does.

    But the First Amendment has nothing to do with the fact that CAIR opposing an OK law that opposed Sharia law being introduced into OK is a  very telling thing.

    And that was my point. But you know that. You just want to change the subject.

    anne, unlike using phony science and something no true scientist would say is science, yes I am talking about "consensus," radical islamists are real and their actions speak for themselves.

    Your problem is trying to define "moderate." And I find that rather tiresome myself. So let me restate. I think the "moderate" Muslims are restrained by the mixed signals that we are sending, and have sent, on the issue of the radicals.

    I call attention to our ignoring the "Iran Spring" while jumping whole heartily into Egypt.

    Have a nice night.


    Or maybe you're just a political idiot (none / 0) (#206)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 06:11:48 AM EST


    My heart bleeds for you (none / 0) (#208)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 04:53:43 PM EST
    And oculus.

    What exactly is it (none / 0) (#209)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 05:02:10 PM EST
    you think you accomplishing 88?   I honestly don't get it.  Do you imagine you will win?  Do you imagine anyone cares if you do?

    I suspect this has to do with why we are not getting open threads.  If that's true do you care?

    yes, it's my fault we can't (none / 0) (#210)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 05:16:31 PM EST
    have nice things on this blog.

    Oculus, here's more of the story (none / 0) (#211)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 06:21:51 PM EST
    Limbaugh's new host won't begin airing his spittle infused invective until June 29th.  So we won't know the effect on its ratings for a while.

    WKOX, whose cached website shows that it was formerly a Spanish-language station, will remain under the ownership of iHeartRadio, the media powerhouse whose companies were formerly branded as Clear Channel, but will be rebranded as TALK 1430. The station that formerly hosted left-leaning Air America programs will now feature commentators such as Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, and Mark Levin, as well as Fox Sports in the morning.


    NOOOOOOOOO...... (none / 0) (#212)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 22, 2015 at 06:54:28 PM EST
    NBC cancels Hannibal

    This to be the last season.  But it may "move to another platform"