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Obama Continues to Stress Accountability to Black Voters

Addressing the NAACP last night, Sen. Barack Obama said he will continue to stress his theme that black voters must take accountability for bettering their own lives.

Obama got a standing ovation at the annual NAACP convention here, presenting himself as a symbol of the political power that earlier black leaders had won. Touting the sacrifice of these activists, Obama said their courage had allowed him to "stand before you tonight as the Democratic nominee for president of the United States of America."

But Obama, in diagnosing conditions in the black community, made it clear that he was prepared to break with the generation of black leadership represented by Jackson. He said that government and business alone couldn't be blamed for the pain suffusing some black neighborhoods, but that black parents needed to show more maturity and demand more from their children.

Obama's advice to parents: [More...]

He advised "turning off the TV set; putting away the video games; attending those parent-teacher conferences; helping our children with their homework; setting a good example."

He continued that parents needed to teach "our sons to treat women with respect and to realize responsibility does not end at conception. That what makes a man a man is not the ability to have a child but to raise one."

The largely black crowd roared its approval.

Obama also stressed this theme in his father's day speech. It does not seem to hurt his standing among African-American voters and some posit it may help him with white voters:

In his implicit criticism that some black men neglect their children, Obama showed he was prepared to endure a breach with his political base. The move could have an upside: White voters might see it as an example of courage.

It's a theme Obama has no intention of abandoning:

In his address to the National Assn. for the Advancement of Colored People, Obama made a veiled reference to the flare-up with Jackson. "I know there are some who've been saying I've been too tough talking about responsibility," he said. "But NAACP, I'm here to report I'm not going to stop talking about it."

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  • Display: Sort:
    Hmmm... (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by dws3665 on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:17:20 AM EST
    Is this considered a bold stance? I'm afraid I don't get it. Most of these viewpoints have been around, and coming from the mouths of some prominent African Americans, for, oh, decades.

    Well they are (5.00 / 0) (#4)
    by mg7505 on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:18:32 AM EST
    just words, after all.

    Parent
    Jesse Jackson said all this long ago. (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:38:29 AM EST
    You are absolutely correct Hairspray... (none / 0) (#189)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 12:03:16 PM EST
    I'll bet even MLK had a thing or two to say about it.

    Parent
    how about just (3.50 / 2) (#25)
    by tben on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:59:58 AM EST
    a good stance?

    Would it really pain you that much to acknowledge that?

    Parent

    I think you need to look (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by MichaelGale on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:00:44 AM EST
    at yourself on why this speech is considered a "good" speech and why you think an AA candidate needs to talk to a race about 'personal responsibility'.

    Why was it necessary that he do this? And do it now?

    Parent

    Michael....think pandering....he wants (5.00 / 2) (#185)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 12:00:40 PM EST
    blacks to act more responsibly, yet he continues to not be accountable for any of his actions...always blaming it on an aide, etc.

    Parent
    he has always done this (1.50 / 2) (#146)
    by tben on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:10:46 AM EST
    its part of who he is, and how he sees himself and his responsibilites in his community.

    I suspect he actually really does care about doing what he can to help people accomplish all that they can in life, especially black people - the community he decided to serve instead of going after the big bucks. As a political leader there is much he can do when his hands are on the levers of power, and he lays those things out.

    But there is also the roles he inevitibly plays as role model, which he does an excellent job at, and as someone who stands up with no hestiation and articulates those values and behaviors that are so important to creating a positive social and familial environment for the next generation.

    I think there would be something seriously missing if he didnt do things like this.

    Parent

    spare me (5.00 / 3) (#158)
    by dws3665 on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:30:07 AM EST
    "It's part of who he is."

    You have NO IDEA who he "is." You know only what he says. You may believe what you like about his character, but please don't pretend to "know" it. This is true of all politicians and celebrities. The mark of the true fan-boy is to think that they "know" their idol.

    Barack Obama is not your friend.

    He may not be your enemy, but you don't know him at all. (substitute the name of any politician that you don't actually know in that sentence, and it's just as valid)

    Parent

    Would it pain you (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by dws3665 on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:27:01 AM EST
    to stop being so defensive?

    This was not an attack.

    Furthermore, I don't consider it to be such a good stance. I don't think it's a bad stance, either - just rather substance-less and sound-bite-y.

    I would prefer to see some, oh, I don't know, proposals that would help realize some of these goals.

    Blandishments from politicians tend to motivate very little behavior change.

    Parent

    Jesse Jackson said all this long ago. (none / 0) (#167)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:37:52 AM EST
    Plenty of people. . . (5.00 / 4) (#5)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:19:09 AM EST
    in the black community will be receptive to Obama's message of personal responsibility combined with societal responsibility.  In a very few years Bill Cosby has gone from getting booed to getting standing ovations for talking about the same issue.

    Obama has advertised himself as someone who tells people what they need to hear, not what they want to hear.  While he sometimes disappoints (eg "undivided Jerusalem"), sometimes he does better.

    Some division (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by waldenpond on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 12:14:19 PM EST
    I expect there may be some division at the 'class' level.  I believe there are differing experiences depending on income level and where people live.  For me, his message is directed more towards the upper income levels (which is who I expect is at a NAACP event), those that have been able to overcome the challenges of our culture and those against affirmative action.  Is his message consistent when he speaks in poor communities and is the response the same?  I don't think the response would be the same in a high school gym in an impoverished area.

    Parent
    Perhaps Obama (5.00 / 5) (#8)
    by pie on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:32:03 AM EST
    should talk about doing something about better education and jobs, instead of pointing fingers and telling people they should be accountable.  How about life in Chicago's South Side, Obama territory.  Are conditions and opportunities  improving for its residents?

    Words.  Pffffft.

    Sure hope he spends more time following up (5.00 / 5) (#15)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:43:40 AM EST
    on his programs than he did his recommendations for who should get money to provide poor people with housing. The people freezing in his good friend Rezko's building weren't rich white people.

    Parent
    Don't worry, pie. (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:00:03 AM EST
    If you care to check out the full text of the speech, you'll find that he covers the responsibilities of government as well.

    But hey, don't let that get in the way of your talking points.

    Parent

    I read the speech... (5.00 / 7) (#99)
    by EL seattle on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:08:58 AM EST
    ... and he did talk about the responsibilities of government.  But I didn't see anything specific about what government can do (or that he would propose be done) about the unique problems that are still faced by minority communities in the USA ca. 2008.

    Here are three samples:

    "We'll guarantee health care for anyone who needs it"

    "we'll make sure that every child in this country gets a world-class education from the day they're born until the day they graduate from college"

    and

    "I'll expand the Earned Income Tax Credit - because it's one of the most successful anti-poverty measures we have."

    These are nice generic promises that will sound nice to most people.  These promises apply almost equally to anyone who's white, black or grey, from Maine to Ohio to California.  But there was nothing that I saw in the speech that indicated that Obama had any specific ideas to offer as to what his government would do to fight the sorts of subtle everyday discrimination that folks in AA community and others still have to face.  You'd think that he might have added at least a mention of one plan - for a specific new program or a policy change - so that people will think that he cares enough to be at least thinking about them, and their unique and specific problems, at least a little bit.

    Parent

    The other thing is that (5.00 / 4) (#109)
    by dk on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:16:31 AM EST
    those promises are SO generic, that anyone, even John McCain, could say them.

    We know that on health care alone, Obama is being downright disingenuous.  And the education claim is just silly.  We have just about the worst educational system in the developed world.  How is he going to make sure it is world class? I'm not buying.

    Parent

    hmmm, and if obama would now stand up (4.33 / 6) (#40)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:13:59 AM EST
    for women and apologize to them for his insufferable conduct during the primaries and in that last fund raiser, then we might sorta believe he isn't being arrogant and talking down to people and some folks have implied. but that isn't going to happen. instead of being a role model in how to respect women, a good lecture works for him instead. color me not impressed.

    Parent
    Uh huh. Like I said... (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:16:11 AM EST
    ...don't let anything get in the way of those talking points.  Quick, somebody say "under the bus"!

    Parent
    excuse you are confused. it is obama's (5.00 / 3) (#49)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:18:37 AM EST
    talking points we are discussing. but hey you just come on under the bus with us. the sun will be hot today with all the hot air up there.

    Parent
    What's with the attitude? You're arguing with ... (4.00 / 4) (#140)
    by Ellie on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:01:03 AM EST
    ... a voice in your head rather than what someone ctually said.

    Parent
    Whose talking points? (none / 0) (#33)
    by pie on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:08:17 AM EST
    Hm (5.00 / 7) (#9)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:32:30 AM EST
    Who is characterizing Jesse Jackson's generation of black leadership as believing "government and business alone can be blamed for the pain suffusing some black neighborhoods"?  I suspect the good Rev. Jackson might not agree that that has been his message all these years.

    Sounds more like another (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by pie on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:34:36 AM EST
    reverend...

    Wright.

    Parent

    I think Jackson. . . (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:56:37 AM EST
    already made clear what he thinks of Obama's position.  And frankly, Obama couldn't get such favorable coverage if he paid for it.  It's like Sister Souljah getting up and denouncing herself.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:04:40 AM EST
    My point is that it's not a particularly even-handed characterization of the debate to say that it's between Obama's "personal responsibility" position and Jackson's "it's entirely the fault of government and business" position.

    It seems to me that Obama's people were VERY successful at interjecting their narrative into this news story.  But it seems a bit much to suggest that personal responsibility was a foreign concept to the previous generation of black leadership.

    Parent

    I want to be careful. . . (none / 0) (#62)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:27:12 AM EST
    because this is an area in which I don't have any personal standing to speak, and you may (translation: I'm not black and I don't know whether you are).

    However, I think it's fair to say that Obama's message, or at least his emphasis, is something that hasn't been heard that much from mainstream black leaders in the last few decades.  As evidence, I offer the response Bill Cosby got when he brought the issue up publicly for what seemed like the first time several years ago.  Also, if this were part of Jackson's message why would he react so negatively to Obama saying it?

    Oddly enough, the idea of personal responsibility plays a somewhat larger role in non-mainstream movements.  It's an important element, for instance, of the philosophy of the Nation of Islam.

    Parent

    Jackson reacted the way he did (5.00 / 3) (#82)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:51:57 AM EST
    because he always paired the message of peroanal responsibilty with societies responsibilities.

    For how many years has Jackson been talking about the importance of education and taking the "personal responsibility" to stay in school and guide your children toward achievement in school?

    In Obama's first speech he didn't address the govt or societal portion.  This time he did.

    So you could read this speech as addressing Jesse Jackson's concerns.

    Parent

    Jackson (2.00 / 3) (#122)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:30:49 AM EST
    reacted they way he did because he is a race baiter, who makes his headlines, his living, his money by ensuring the races remain separate.  He will be the most disappointed man in America if Obama is elected president.  

    Parent
    Let me try again (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:06:32 AM EST
    We don't really know what Jackson's actual issue is with Obama's message because he basically made an intemperate remark and then apologized without explaining himself further.

    It is to Obama's message to frame the disagreement as "I'm talking about personal responsibility and Jesse doesn't like that."  This article certainly buys into that frame.  But I question whether Jesse Jackson, if we asked him, would describe the disagreement in quite that way.

    I think it is a question of degree, and in some respects a question of tone.  Everyone agrees that personal responsibility is important.  It strikes me as sort of dismissive to suggest that Jesse Jackson and the "prior generation of black leadership" didn't emphasize the importance of personal responsibility.

    Obama's message here is sort of a subset of something he likes to say that I've complained about in non-racial contexts: the argument that he's not one of the people who believes government is the solution for everything, as if such people actually exist.

    Parent

    Are you saying. . . (none / 0) (#124)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:33:41 AM EST
    that you think Jackson's reaction may have been to something other than what he perceived as Obama's lecturing tone on personal responsibility?  I've heard the tape once, on the radio, and I couldn't make out even one word.  But I thought it was established that he was objecting to that particular issue.

    I doubt Jackson would describe the disagreement as his rejection of personal responsibility, since who's really against responsibility anyway -- especially when it's receiving such a positive response?  But it's hard to see this contretemps as being, at least proximally, about anything else.

    I don't say that Jackson denies the importance of  personal responsibility, but I do think it's fair to say that he's never particularly emphasized it.  On the issue of personal responsibility he's been rather more cautious than Cassius.

    As for the argument about whether there really are people who believe government is the solution to everything, the problem is that the perception that this is so is broad enough to affect voting.  While I believe it's probably worthwhile to try to eliminate that meme in society I don't think it's particularly productive for a particular candidate to being trying parse things down to that level during an important campaign.

    Parent

    JJ gave an interview heard on NPR (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by brodie on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:59:49 AM EST
    the other day where he did in fact say he had a problem with degree, tone and overall balance of Obama's remarks on personal responsibility.

    Agree too that JJ, while he has spoken to black groups about being better people and citizens (drug taking, crime, leaving school too early, not registering to vote, etc), the areas he has most stressed are gov't/societal racism and malignant indifference to blacks.

    Obviously too we probably see some personal issues JJ has in giving up his de facto Leader of the Black Community to the new charismatic and well-spoken kid on the block, someone far less controversial than he is, and someone unlike him who was successful in winning the Dem nomination and who stands poised to win it all.

    The latter has to be taken into account in the fuller understanding of the matter given the very aggressive remarks he made when he thought the mic was off.  A disagreement on the margins about things like tone, degree and balance would not seem the stuff from which vulgarly violent comments would spring.

    Parent

    Your 3rd paragraph (5.00 / 0) (#179)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:50:54 AM EST
    Obviously too we probably see some personal issues JJ has in giving up his de facto Leader of the Black Community to the new charismatic and well-spoken kid on the block, someone far less controversial than he is,  
    is quite apt.  It is probably galling to JJ as well that Obama never suffered some of the really damaging episodes the older generation had to deal with.

    Parent
    I love the message (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by samtaylor2 on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:40:13 AM EST
    It is great that we have a new black leader who can move the black community forward.  Of course the rest of the speech did focus on jobs and that kind of stuff.  

    P.S.
    No one through anyone under a bus, this has nothing to do with Rev. Wright (Pie where do you get this stuff?).

    I said it (5.00 / 0) (#16)
    by pie on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:47:07 AM EST
    sounded like him.  Or have you forgotten some of his statements?

    Parent
    The reason why it is offensive (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by Exeter on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:49:26 AM EST
    is because he is using race in a very inappropriate way. By lecturing Blacks on white stereotypes of Blacks, he is sending a message to Whites: "See, I agree with you, Blacks are XYZ, but I'm obviously different from those people as evidenced by my lecturing"

    Parent
    Listen to the Spech First (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by samtaylor2 on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:01:12 AM EST
    It was a great speech, that got a great response.

    Parent
    The LA Times was left with the impression (5.00 / 0) (#47)
    by Exeter on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:18:04 AM EST
    that Obama was saying that Black parents were not "mature".  Perhaps this is bad reporting, but to call an entire race immature is pretty offensive -- especially since it plays into the common black stereotype that Blacks are childlike.

    Parent
    Read or listen to the speech (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by samtaylor2 on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:20:24 AM EST
    That was not the focus.  For a good review check out Salon.

    Parent
    I understand your point (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Exeter on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:34:25 AM EST
    and have listened to the speech. The point is that the headlines of yesterdays speech and the part of the speech that most of MSM focused on was Obama's comments aimed at Black parents.

    Most of what I have seen has been headlines like these:
    LA Times: Obama Re-Admonishes Blacks
    AP: Obama Says Blacks Must Take Responsibility
    ReuterS: Obama tells blacks they must take responsibility

    Parent

    Just because a speech (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by americanincanada on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:24:00 AM EST
    gets a great response does not automatically make the speech itself great or the talking points perfect. Some of the people who heard the speech may not even have paid attention to the words.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:49:39 AM EST
    Do you really think it's true that the prior generation of black leadership (Jesse Jackson et al.) never talked about responsibility?

    Parent
    no, it isn't true at all... (5.00 / 5) (#21)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:54:52 AM EST
    Jesse has talked about personal responsibility for many years.  Jesse's complaint last week was that Obama talked about personal responsibility without including societal responsibility at the same time.  To Jesse it sounded like Obama was giving society and the government a pass and telling blacks it was all up to them

    Parent
    No I think they have been talking about (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by samtaylor2 on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:16:05 AM EST
    Personal responsibility.  But that was never his focus.  His generation fought and in a large part won the fight, so that personal responsibility could mean reaching new heights for people like Obama, myself, my brother, etc.  If we didn't have him and his generation, I would not have had the chance to have my actions drive me towards the success every American dreams about.  However, I think now their needs to be shift of focus to personal responsiblity (while not forgetting the other half of the fight).  Bill Cosby, Obama, they are shifting that focus, while not discounting or diminishing the huge weight of racism that still exists in this country (vs. the Shelby Steele's of this world that discount the latter)

    As a side note Jackson is a hero of mine.  I remeber when my dad took me to see him in San Francisco when the anti affirmative action stuff was going on, real powerful- he could get the KKK standing and chearing for him (if only we could have fit the rest of Ca into Glide that night).  I think what makes the right hate him so much is that he has been succesful. Sure he has said some dumb things, but who hasn't in 40 years worth of surface (and has actually done somethng).  I am guessing Obama doesn't take what he said that seriously, all these people talk "sh#$#$t" about each other, its part of the game.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:09:50 AM EST
    I respect where you are coming from on this.

    I'm glad you didn't see the framing of this article as dismissive of Jesse Jackson and the arguments of the "prior generation."  Particularly in the context of civil rights, it's important that we respect the things people did in their time, even if we decide we want to do something different in our time.

    Parent

    Jesse Jackson, if he had wanted to (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:57:53 AM EST
    go that way, could have built a huge left movement of working class whites and blacks.  I understand why he's remained resolutely focused on the AA community, but have always regretted he didn't take that opportunity to broaden out his movement.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 5) (#141)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:01:42 AM EST
    If only he had worked more on building a coalition.  Perhaps one that had room for all colors of the rainbow...

    Parent
    Me too. I met working class whites (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:57:05 AM EST
    during the '80's who really listened to JJ and were willing to follow his populist rethoric.  Unfortunately he didn't build the broader coalition which might have won the presidency for him, or at least the Democratic nomination.

    Parent
    JJ could well be (3.00 / 0) (#145)
    by brodie on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:08:12 AM EST
    described, as to his 84 and 88 runs for the Dem nomination, as the Controversial Black Candidate for President, since his often sharp and critical message was or was always perceived as primarily in the context of black issues -- he was in effect the AA community's "representative" in those races.  (ditto for Al Sharpton in 2004).

    Contrast with Obama, who's much more in the category of Uncontroversial Young Candidate for President Who Happens to be Black.

    But then, looking at JJ's personal history, we see he was engaging in some self-aggrandizing behavior going way back , well before his presidential races.  As in the days immediately following the assassination of MLK, when he appeared to be making more of his role in King's CR movement than he actually had.  Some truly with more clout in that inner circle and who knew the truth have tended over the years to take a jaundiced view of Jesse for his grandstanding ways.

    So, he is who he is, and was probably always going to have a narrow appeal.

    I'm sorta glad though that we can now look forward to a new generation of black leaders, and hopefully the post-MLK era of Jackson and Sharpton is coming to a close.

    Parent

    It's a good message for white parents too (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by ruffian on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:00:04 AM EST
    I wish he would deliver it to a wider audience.

    Parent
    I agree that it is a message (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by samanthasmom on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:11:58 AM EST
    that all parents should hear. However, the last President who suggested that we should take responsibility for our own problems (I believe he used the word "malaise") didn't fair very well in his bid for re-election. While white people applaud Obama for chastising African-Americans, I am not so sure they would be as enthusiastic if the message were directed at them - no matter who is the messenger.

    Parent
    Isn't that the whole point of why many people (5.00 / 5) (#50)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:18:50 AM EST
    including the editors of the Black Agenda Report are angry. Obama is using the very people who are supporting him the most.

    Parent
    But why should white people (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by ruffian on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:39:47 AM EST
    applaud him chastising African-Americans, and why should African-Americans support being chastised for the sake of getting applause from white people?

    I agree with his message if it is applied to everyone. I don't support chastising one group to please another.

    Is he going to deliver a speach someplace to chastise whites for something?  Probably not, because he does not have the white vote locked up.

    I hear BTD in my head - pols are pols and they do what pols do.

    Parent

    Well, to be "fair," Obama (none / 0) (#75)
    by dk on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:42:36 AM EST
    is kind of doing that with the faith-based stuff.  To be a good society, faith will be the "core" of his administatration with a department of faith and state funding for faith based charities...you know, bring back morality to policy because "some" pro-choicers don't recognize the moral implications of abortions, and "some" gays (not like his favorite ones, of course) proselytize, etc.

    Parent
    Yes, I forgot that he does chastise white liberals (5.00 / 3) (#86)
    by ruffian on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:58:48 AM EST
    Another group he thinks he has locked up. Note that he has nothing but priase for the white conservatives, and throws them more faith-based dollars to prove it.

    Parent
    'Get this stuff?' From the public record perhaps? (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Ellie on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:15:00 AM EST
    Stop pretending that BO's actual words and deeds are inventions attributed to him, characterizations, spin or whatever your Frame of the Day From On High to pretend away things Obama actually said or did (such as denounce Rev Wright.)

    Obama's handlers might find it expedient to run away from his public record but you can't erase what people saw him do.

    Parent

    Do you think the people he was (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:54:21 AM EST
    addressing are the people who need to hear the message?  Do you think that exhorting poor people to "take responsibility" has any effect?

    There's something pretty icky to me about white people enthusiastically approving a black guy for lecturing other black folks about "taking responsibility."

    I'm curious whether you think Obama's intended wider audience for this part of his speech is people who actually need and will respond to a pep talk or white voters.

    Serious questions.  I'm not particularly interested in the opinions of the other white people here.

    Parent

    This makes me very uncomfortable (5.00 / 5) (#32)
    by kenosharick on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:05:48 AM EST
    playing off of the fears and prejudice of some middle-class whites for votes. I guess he really will do anything to win.

    Uh huh. (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:09:41 AM EST
    And oddly enough, in reaction to Obama "playing off the fears of some middle-class whites"...

    The largely black crowd roared its approval.

    Gee.  It's almost like he's right or something.

    Parent

    Are they applauding the message (5.00 / 3) (#56)
    by samanthasmom on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:21:32 AM EST
    or the messenger? "A largely black audience" roars its approval for Reverend Wright, too, whose message is almost diametrically opposed to this one.

    Parent
    Yeah, you're probably right. (3.50 / 2) (#65)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:28:44 AM EST
    I bet they're clapping and cheering just because it's Barack Obama up there, not because they agree with what he's saying!  Why, they're probably not even listening to the words, those dopes!  Just clapping like good little robots!  Nobody would ever accuse the NAACP of being politically or socially aware or able to think critically, no sirree!

    ...Sheesh.  Maybe you should think this stuff through before you write it.  It was a good speech, and people liked it.  Get over it and move on to valid criticisms.

    Parent

    Well, who do they agree with? (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by samanthasmom on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:36:02 AM EST
    Wright or Obama?

    Parent
    False choice. (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:43:12 AM EST
    It's not either/or.  Both men are right about some things and wrong about others.  

    In this case, the attending members of the NAACP thought Obama was correct.  It's pretty uncomplicated.

    Parent

    So the NAACP will be joining Obama (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by samanthasmom on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:00:41 AM EST
    in denouncing Reverend Wright? Since it is, according to you, Obama who they agree with? It seems like just last April Wright was a featured speaker at the NAACP and received lots and lots of applause.

    Parent
    No (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by CST on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:06:11 AM EST
    Can you read???  Pegasus just said it's not either/or.  For example, I would cheer for a speech that lauded personal responsibility.  I would also cheer for a speech that admonished the government for lack of action by them.  Because they are BOTH right.

    We need more personal responsibility.  And the government has been terrible and needs to do more.  I don't get what is so hard to understand here.  P.S. Obama denounced Wright, he did not denounce everything the man ever said.  There are shades of gray here.

    Parent

    The GOP was very big on personal (5.00 / 2) (#192)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 12:07:44 PM EST
    responsibility.  I took that as code for "do it yourself" the government is not going to help.  So while I believe personal responsibility is always a good value, it really depends on who says it and to whom.  As a practical matter, we know that personal responsililty goes up and crime goes down when the economies of a country are booming. So the president has a responsibility too!!!

    Parent
    If there were some things that (none / 0) (#108)
    by samanthasmom on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:15:59 AM EST
    Obama said that did not generate wild applause from an NAACP audience or some things that Wright said that fell flat, I would agree with it's not an either or situation.  But both men receive applause for saying the opposite thing.  It's either a fan-type response or a severe case of cognitive dissonance. In the case of Obama, I think it's the former. I think he could read the phone book and get applause.

    Parent
    You say "saying the opposite thing." (none / 0) (#116)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:25:45 AM EST
    What did they say, exactly, that was so contradictory?  Quotes, please.  Because honestly, I think you're just making this up as you go along.

    Parent
    "Say the opposite thing" (none / 0) (#170)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:39:12 AM EST
    in the SAME public record excerpts that are run over and over again in such a way as to frame and define certain persons in specific ways.

    It's difficult to believe Wright has spent decades as a Christian minister without delving into the issue of personal conduct or that Obama never talks about societal/governmental responsibility.

    Parent

    What did he say there? (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:08:21 AM EST
    When he spoke at the NAACP, did Wright say that black parents should not have any personal responsibility toward their kids?  Did what he said contradict what Obama just said in any way?

    Because if not, you have no point whatsoever.

    Parent

    Have you listened to Wright's speech at the NAACP? (none / 0) (#119)
    by samanthasmom on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:28:55 AM EST
    Have you? (none / 0) (#126)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:43:55 AM EST
    I read the text, and didn't see anything contradicting Obama's message from yesterday.  Maybe I'm missing something and you can point it out.

    I did see this, I guess.


    Many of us are committed to changing, number three, the way we treat each other. The way black men treat black women. The way black parents treat black children. The way black youth treat black elders and the way black elders treat black youth. We are committed to changing the way we treat each other.

    But that's substantially in agreement with Obama, so again: what's your point?

    Parent

    You should actually listen. (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by samanthasmom on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:54:52 AM EST
    African American children are at a disadvantage in school because they are "right-brained" and European children are "left-brained". Our teachers don't know how to teach "right-brained" kids. The whole speech was full of a bunch of nonsense, and yet it got lots of applause. My point is that the fact that the NAACP crowd applauded Obama did not make his speech a good speech.  Obama is using his black supporters to curry favor with a group of voters that want to put the responsibility totally on the shoulders of parents who are working three jobs and don't have time to read to their kids. That way the rest of us don't have to bear any responsibility for educating them. If Obama believes that parents should take more responsibility for rearing their own children, then ALL parents should be admonished- not just the AA parents. The fact that he is only chastising AA parents and they are giving him applause for singling them out is sad - not something to use as praise for Obama.

    Parent
    So you're saying that, (none / 0) (#139)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:00:46 AM EST
    as opposed to what you said above, there's nothing "diametrically opposed" in the two speeches?  Although there some junk science in Wright's, it's certainly not "contradicting" Obama.

    Good, I'm glad we agree.  Glad we had this talk.

    Parent

    Wright's speech (4.00 / 4) (#182)
    by samanthasmom on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:57:39 AM EST
    as one example says that the failure of AA children in school is because they have different brains than white kids. No personal responsibility needed there.
    Are you so in the tank for Obama that you cannot see that he is using the AA community to pander to his rich white liberals?

    Parent
    According to Obama it is not (2.00 / 1) (#77)
    by dk on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:46:28 AM EST
    a false choice.  Obama, if you recall, denounced, rejected, and repudiated Wright.

    That is, unless you think Obama was disingenuous in doing that.  Is disingnuous a leadership quality too, now?

    Parent

    Sigh... this is beyond belief. (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:51:10 AM EST
    I'm sorry, do you folks have an example of Rev. Wright telling the NAACP something "diametrically opposed" to what Obama said yesterday, and them cheering wildly?  If not, the whole premise of this argument is inoperable.

    Parent
    Not to mention (5.00 / 3) (#84)
    by CST on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:57:45 AM EST
    They probably have different audiences.  I am sure that all of trinity church didn't show up at Obama's speech for the NAACP.  Hello people, not all black people are the same.  They can have, gasp, different opinions.   And even agree with varying positions on the issues.

    Parent
    Just curious (none / 0) (#103)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:11:08 AM EST
    What are the things you believe Wright is correct about and Obama is wrong about?

    Parent
    You didn't ask me (none / 0) (#111)
    by CST on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:17:59 AM EST
    But I want to answer anyway.

    I think September 11th was caused by our "chickens coming home to roost" because of our horribly one-sided policy in the middle east.

    Also, the government administers Aids :) (not really, I just love that one)

    Parent

    Not relevant to the conversation. (none / 0) (#113)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:22:28 AM EST
    And FWIW, I'm not especially familiar with Jeremiah Wright's work, beyond the stuff that exploded through the media.  But from what I have read, he has pretty good things to say on racial equality (really, he does) and the role of community in impoverished urban areas, and pretty stupid things to say about geopolitics.

    Parent
    Oh, and the Obama part. (none / 0) (#114)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:24:10 AM EST
    Sorry, missed that.

    He was way wrong on FISA, and I've never agreed with him on the HC mandate issue.

    Your turn.  You must agree with Obama about something, right?

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:30:00 AM EST
    I agree with Obama on tons of things.  I'm a Democrat, after all.

    I wasn't trying to play gotcha with you, but when you said "both men are right about some things and wrong about others," I assumed you were referring to matters on which the two of them disagree.

    Parent

    Understandable. (none / 0) (#132)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:50:50 AM EST
    That wasn't my meaning; I was just saying that samanthasmom's point (which seems to be that it is inherently contradictory for the same person to applaud any single thing Wright says while also cheering any single thing Obama says) is totally bankrupt.

    Parent
    My impression (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:54:36 AM EST
    is that people have this impression that Rev. Wright is the sort of guy who goes around blaming every problem on "white people's greed."  Suffice it to say that I think the guy is a little deeper than that.

    Parent
    as exeter notes above, (3.66 / 3) (#180)
    by sancho on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:56:14 AM EST
    all that matters are the headlines--how it is spun. the spin is, obama lectures blacks on their failings as parents. the goal is to communicate to white voters that obama wont hit them over the head with "black" issues if elected prez. as he's been telling us since south carolina, he's no jesse jackson (cue whatever bad associations one has of jj and then act relieved to learn this "one" is different.) it is an easy shot for obama and he made it again--just like on father's day. presumably, it is not the last time he will do the cosby thing.  the naacp audience understands his gambit too. and they were polite hosts. and they applauded. but they did not hear anything they have not heard before and wont hear again.

    but the speech itself is just pablum, as most speeches are. and the audience is hoping that obama does not really mean it (or that he will push for policies that help blacks), just as the intended whites are hoping obama is not "an angry black person pretending to be a nice black person."  

    my call: if obama came from a republican state, he'd be a republican. he wants to be elected. he wants to give pablum speeches where audiences cheer whether the words mean anything or not. he's exploiting all the advantages he thinks he has.  being perceived as a black leader (he's not of course, he's a leader, sort of, who is perceived as black) willing to lecture blacks before "white" news media is one of his easiest plays. having commenters of any race saying this is "brave" is good for his plan. if you want to believe that he believes what he says, that's great too. to each her/his own.  

    Parent

    Steve M (none / 0) (#123)
    by CST on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:31:01 AM EST
    Has good comments.  He's pretty fair, both pro- and con- Obama.

    Parent
    Yeah, but. . . (none / 0) (#125)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:40:59 AM EST
    He was way wrong on FISA,

    He was right on it before he was wrong on it!  Right?

    Parent

    Sure, although that's worth precisely nothing. (none / 0) (#128)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:44:59 AM EST
    Gets him Kerry points! n/t (none / 0) (#143)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:03:54 AM EST
    How dare you suggest (none / 0) (#165)
    by dws3665 on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:37:05 AM EST
    that Barack Obama was WRONG about something!

    /snark

    Parent

    Why, in your words, is he right? (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by MichaelGale on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:05:51 AM EST
    Personally, I agree with his message. (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:10:09 AM EST
    And it appears that members of the NAACP do as well.  And frankly, they're in a much better position to judge the message than I am.

    Parent
    I can't believe.... (5.00 / 7) (#46)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:17:53 AM EST
    some commenters would ridicule a message of "be better parents and do better by your children".

    Now I think Obama is as full of sh*t as the next politician, but I wholeheartedly agree with this message.  

    I'm just wondering if it is a president's job (5.00 / 4) (#61)
    by americanincanada on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:26:33 AM EST
    to tell us how to raise our children and live our private lives.

    At what point does the message cross over to becoming him lecturing us on things that are really none of his business? We are not electing a father in chief.

    Parent

    I don't think he's telling anybody... (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:47:56 AM EST
    how to raise their kids, just that you need to raise them...the school system can't do it, a bueracrat can't do it...parents have to do it, no matter how limited their means.

    I don't think he's telling anybody how to live either...at least not in this instance.

    If he were, I'd criticize that for sure.  My father had an unconventional way of raising his kids that might make a square's head spin, but he raised us, taught us right from wrong, and the value of hard work.

    Parent

    Hmmm...I disagree with this (none / 0) (#115)
    by americanincanada on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:25:34 AM EST
    just that you need to raise them...the school system can't do it, a bueracrat can't do it...parents have to do it, no matter how limited their means.

    This is exactly the message I disagree with. yes, parent's need to raise their children and no a pol can't do it. But I do believe that the school system, the government, neighbors and extended family are also responsible for raising our children. It takes a village...

    Parent

    the best schools and the best village (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:16:37 AM EST
    cannot overcome terrible parents.

    Parent
    A village helps.... (none / 0) (#129)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:46:48 AM EST
    no doubt...I just don't think you can always count on the village, yet you can always count on yourself.

    Parent
    Then perhaps (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by americanincanada on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:59:24 AM EST
    he should be lecturing the village...

    Parent
    Perhaps.... (none / 0) (#173)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:40:14 AM EST
    but I don't think that is as effective as stressing to parents that they are the most critical component. The village can be a helping hand, but it's the parents that must do the heavy lifting.

    It can be done without the village, or in spite of the village in some cases...it's practically impossible without the parents.

    Parent

    THANK YOU americancanadian (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by kelsweet on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:10:50 AM EST
    I have been wondering if I was the only 1 thinking the same thing.
     AND no one has mentioned that most likely the people cheering him on ARE the responsible ones! The irresponsible ones aren't listening to Obama or anyone else, and couldn't care less what he thinks about their lack of responsibility.
     

    Parent
    You guys are amazing (none / 0) (#147)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:15:18 AM EST
    You criticize him because he isn't a leader and then when he takes a leadership position you.... criticize him.

    I guess that JFK was getting all preachy when he said "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for you country?"

    Parent

    Yes, Obama is Just Like JFK OMG! (5.00 / 2) (#184)
    by madamab on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:59:18 AM EST
    Obama is lecturing AA's only, calling them "boys" and telling them how to raise their children.

    JFK was saying to all Americans that they should give back to their country. He was calling for national service and linking it to patriotism.

    The idea of national service as patriotism is very different from that of personal responsibility to one's family.

    But I suspect you know that.

    Parent

    Good comment. (none / 0) (#69)
    by lilburro on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:34:13 AM EST
    There's nothing really wrong with this message.  Sure it could turn sour, depending on wording and tone, but it doesn't seem like it did here.  

    Parent
    Here's why I don't like this line of reasoning (5.00 / 6) (#52)
    by Democratic Cat on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:20:23 AM EST
    Personal responsibility is important. But to say or imply that black parents in particular need to turn off the tv and get rid of the video games misses the mark. White, middle and higher class individuals certainly don't lack for tvs and video games, but you know what? Their kids are going to do much better than on average than the kids of poor folks. Now, why is that? It's not because poor or black parents are inherently deficient. It's just not.

    I think the village is much richer (none / 0) (#197)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 12:21:13 PM EST
    in the middle and upper class homes. Indifferent parents in those neighborhoods usually have excellent schools, lots of activist parents around , organized activities and usually friends who have vigilant parents. Also the rich village has  no street crime, lots of jobs with good salaries to buy music lessons, sports, etc. The others in that village support that culture.

    Parent
    He's lecturing again, but I'm not sure (5.00 / 10) (#55)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:20:45 AM EST
    I know what his goal is.  Is he looking to be the new voice and de facto leader of black Americans, such that he feels not only comfortable, but responsible for, telling them what their goals and agenda should be?  

    Is he looking to reassure the white community by showing them he can call out the black community to stop laying the blame for where they are or aren't at the feet of the white community - which also separates him from Jeremiah Wright and Father Pfleger and Rev. Meeks?  

    Is his government-can't-do-everything talk a message to conservatives tired of social programs?  

    Is he going to give that same lecture to the next virtually all-white or all-Latino group to whom he speaks?  I mean, isn't personal responsibility something that, ahem, transcends race?

    I don't know - I have to wonder if, once they stop to think about it a little, the people in the NAACP audience, in the hall, might not find themselves a little put-out that he delivered that lecture to them - probably a generally middle-to-upper scale demographic not likely to be the real target of his remarks.  Or is Obama counting on the people in his audience to go out and spread the message to those who really need to hear it?

    I can't make up my mind about what he thinks he gains by giving parenting lectures to an NAACP audience.  Or to the congregation of a black church.

    I think personal responsibility is a great thing, but it isn't just lacking in one community.

    He's up to two things (5.00 / 4) (#153)
    by Pol C on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:22:22 AM EST
    The first is lecturing people on how they should live their lives, which Obama takes to like a duck to water. Unfortunately, that sort of behavior makes the ducks he's addressing go look for another pond or, apparently, think about gelding him.

    The second is preening for the approval of white upscale class bigots, who all feel the problem with working-class people is that they just don't take responsibility for anything and work hard like we do. You should have seen the Morning Joe crew this morning, who altogether get paid over $2 million a year to sit on their butt and potificate for three hours. They were absolutely ecstatic about Obama's speech.


    Parent

    obama is part of the democratic (5.00 / 6) (#63)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:27:41 AM EST
    establishment who have done nothing for us under bush. he didn't vote for our welfare when he often had the chance. he is swinging to the right and then now wants to lecture. everyone who shivers with delight at this lecturing and calling it "leadership" leaves me scratching my head. you ignore his lack of leadership in the senate for his state. he never even held a committee meeting. he never lectured his followers when hillary was being attacked. he wiped her off his shoe. but don't let us stand in the way of this special moment.

    Sharp poke followed by (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by blogtopus on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:50:27 AM EST
    The fact is he is spreading a message that is a lightning rod for controversy: Despite the reception, there are many in the AA communities who will wonder what planet he's on (who has time to raise a kid right with crushing poverty and crime outside - and sometimes inside - your front door?) And there are many in the conservative white community which will hail him for it -- but will still vote for McCain.

    What's the gain? This is an honest question waiting for an honest answer. If anyone deserves the kudos for this, it's Bill Cosby: He was the one who took the heat, not Obama. We'll see.

    Troll Prophylactic: I'm not bashing Obama's message here; I think he's forwarding a message that has always been legit. I just question his timing and reasoning for saying this now (or has he spoken like this before the Pres Campaign?)

    the cynical view here (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:58:10 AM EST
    is that Obama is talking about this to assure the white voters that he is not intending to the first "black" president.

    The first question my neighbor asked me about the dem primary when the debates were going on is whether they asked Obama about whether he supports "reparations".  So, I'm sure many voters are concerned that Obama would push a "black" agenda as president.

    Parent

    the message is fine (5.00 / 3) (#87)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:59:08 AM EST
    the losers who have been known to call Clinton a scold or accused her of pandering to social conservatives when she said the exact same thing, those people are still losers.

    The thing I don't like is the emphasis that.... (5.00 / 4) (#88)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:00:24 AM EST
    ...the white media puts on this. Yes there are bad parents in the African American community. Yes there are bad parents all over the place. But the situation is far more complicated than just laying it on Black fathers. (And yes I am a feminist and I will say that.) I happen to know a lot of black men who have fathered their own children and other people's children too. I happen to know a lot of young black men who didn't marry the mother of their child but still support that child nonetheless.

    I understand what Obama is saying. But this spin that the media puts on it is just pushing negative stereotypes.

    And yes I agree with an earlier comment that now that Obama has stated his position, he needs to offer some policy solutions that will help young parents meet their responsibilities.

    There are a lot of fathers who do not take (5.00 / 4) (#105)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:14:18 AM EST
    any responsibility for their children and this is not limited to the AA community. There are also mothers who do not take responsibility.

    Let us not forget that many children of affluent parents do not receive proper parenting and they lack any excuse other than their own self-centeredness.

    Parent

    Well, he's trying the Bill Clinton thing (5.00 / 4) (#104)
    by masslib on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:13:02 AM EST
    but he's not very good at it.  First, he doesn't need to keep doing this to african americans.  It becomes a bit weird, his signaling them out.  Second, he ought never to have said african american men were "acting like boys" and now calling them immature.  It's innapropriate.  Really, he's not an anthropologist.  He's running for President. Finally, Bill Clinton would have said parents need to be more responsible(here's how), but if you do that, the government will fulfill it's obligation to you(here's how).  

    No brainer. (5.00 / 3) (#130)
    by Radix on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:48:25 AM EST
    Of course people need to be responsible. Of course parents need to spend time with their children, every study says this is true. And every time economic conditions improve, such that, they filter down to poor areas, we see people doing exactly what Obama says they should. Economic conditions worsen and people move in the opposite direction. So, which is the cart and which is the horse here?

    This is one of those issues where I really don't (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by halstoon on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:03:58 AM EST
    get the Left. I mean, how can you possibly take exception with Obama telling people that they have to take responsibility for themselves and their children? What is wrong with reminding people that the government cannot fix all the ills in their lives?

    People who call others racist when we point out that responsible procreation is a major key in overcoming poverty are simply enablers. Having one child because you're ignorant of birth control is really more than I am willing to concede, but after the first birth, you really have no excuse.

     It's not just blacks, but when 70% of black babies are born to a single mother, it's pretty sorry to be unwilling to acknowledge a problem within the community, imo.

    Barack is absolutely right. Government and business have to do the right thing, but so do individuals.


    Yes, everyone has a role here, (5.00 / 3) (#159)
    by Radix on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:30:09 AM EST
    no question about it. The question arises as to when Business and Government will start doing their part?

    Parent
    You are the one (5.00 / 4) (#160)
    by madamab on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:31:10 AM EST
    using GOP talking points.

    The "Left" absolutely understands this issue. What I personally don't appreciate is a politician lecturing to me about responsibility, when his job, the job we pay him to do, is to make society better so that people have the opportunity to take more responsibility.

    Obama seems to be furthering the GOP meme that black people are irresponsible, when the reality is that quite a few of them live in abject poverty, have no access to quality education, and have to work three jobs (if they can get them) in order to provide any kind of health care to their children. And we won't even discuss the fact that a very high percentage of young black men are in jail because of overly punitive drug laws, now will we? As for unwanted pregnancies, they have been increasing under Bush because of abstinence-only education. Will Obama continue that charade, or will he promote responsible sex education for teenagers?

    What is Senator Obama going to do about those issues, as President of the United States?

    Obama needs to promote legislation to address societal ills, not tell us all what bad boys and girls we are. I don't see any reason for him to go around talking to AA's this way. It's insulting and distracting from the real, institutionalized racism that black people suffer from in our country.

    But maybe he has no desire to address such issues. Maybe he'd rather lecture than act.

    Certainly seems that way to me.


    Parent

    I agree, I do have different thoughts though. (5.00 / 2) (#187)
    by Radix on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 12:01:37 PM EST
    Is there institutional racism, probably. The real culprit here is Class specific. The conditions we see in inner city ethno-centric locations, are seen anywhere there is a high amount of poverty. So much of what appears to be institutional racism is really institutional bias against the poor, less well off folks of any ethnic back round.

    Parent
    There is definitely Institutionalized Racism (5.00 / 2) (#194)
    by CST on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 12:18:16 PM EST
    Look at any statistics for bank loans.  Black people with good credit get worse interest rates (or no loans at all) compared to white people with the same credit.

    That by itself makes it that much harder to buy a home, start a business, or do anything to get ahead in life.

    I could give all sorts of other personal anecdotes but those are hard to verify and therefore not as useful.

    Parent

    CST - that and so much more. (none / 0) (#198)
    by madamab on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 12:25:20 PM EST
    I didn't mean, however, that Obama should focus ONLY on institutionalized racism.

    He was, however, speaking to the NAACP at the time, so it would have made sense to focus on how to end it, IMHO.

    Parent

    I know - just an anecdote (none / 0) (#203)
    by CST on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 12:35:53 PM EST
    I think if he had spent the whole speech talking about institutionalized racism he would've been completely skewered by the press.

    No, Obama isn't being brave here, he's being pragmatic.

    At the same time, I think what he's says here is also true, so I'm fine with it.

    I don't think personal responsibility and government responsibility are mutually exclusive.  Although, I grant that as a politician he should be more focused on the latter.

    Parent

    I should have said certainly instead of (none / 0) (#199)
    by Radix on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 12:29:15 PM EST
    probably. My comments on the wealthy's war on the poor stands though.

    Parent
    I agree... (4.83 / 6) (#196)
    by madamab on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 12:20:47 PM EST
    that's why we should be pushing for social justice for all people.

    When you pass legislation to improve the lives of the poor in America, you are really improving the lives of our whole society. I call it "trickle-up economics."

    It used to be that Democrats believed in investing in the working class. Now most of them appear to believe we are all Bubbas unworthy of their time and energy.

    Ah, progress.

    Parent

    It's Difficult to Do the Right Thing (5.00 / 4) (#161)
    by BDB on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:31:40 AM EST
    In an economy and society structured to disadvantage poor and middle class folks as ours has increasingly become over the past thirty years.  

    But more than that, it's depressing to hear from someone in a position to try to change those policies blaming the victims for their own plight.  Do some people act irresponsibly?  Sure, but that's true at all levels of our economic spectrum.  Somehow, however, hedge fund managers never get these lectures.  Fanny Mae and Fanny Mac get bailed out by the government.  Fanny Jones gets lectured on her moral failings.

    I wish I had time to find it, but there was a blog post that suggested Bear Stearns sell some of its bling and get a job at Walmart instead of asking for welfare.  Basically comparing the way rich, large companies and the people who run them are treated when they need government help (never judged, never questioned, just bailed out again and again) and poor people (told over and over again it's their own fault and they won't be getting a dime because they might not spend it responsibly).  It was funny in a sad way.  

    Parent

    it will resonate more (5.00 / 2) (#174)
    by dws3665 on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:41:59 AM EST
    when he tells the Chamber of Commerce that they need to turn off the tv and put away the video games.

    Parent
    I agree halstoon (none / 0) (#149)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:17:22 AM EST
    this is why we get our butts kicked all the time. We are so disorganized as a party, we can't agree on a single common sense issue like this one.

    Parent
    Bill (5.00 / 2) (#154)
    by jxstorm on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:24:11 AM EST
    Cosby has been saying the same thing for years and was basically called an Uncle Tom.  Obama does it and AA swoon.  I think this is all politics to him.  It matters not because the majority of AA will vote for him no matter what he says!

    Yes he has.

    The Pound Cake Speech.

    Worth reading again.

    Parent

    There must be a way to highlight good fathers (5.00 / 2) (#171)
    by catfish on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:39:54 AM EST
    give this message without the downer finger-wagging thing. Highlight fathers who are doing it right.

    It seems like he's reinforcing stereotypes. He does that a lot. I used to work in corporate diversity training and all primary season I've often noticed he never went through the training.

    I'm sick of Obama and his lectures (5.00 / 2) (#201)
    by sonya on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 12:32:47 PM EST
    to black people, and what he said on Father's Day was despicable.  Jesse was right, all Obama does is talk down to black audiences because he can -- so far.  A growing number of black people are getting tired of his grandstanding:

    Keven Alexander Gray:

    In the days after Obama's speech, Ishmael Reed, Dr. Ron Walters and others rebutted the candidate's targeting of black men with the Boston College study which revealed - surprisingly to some - that black fathers not living in the same domicile as their children are more likely to have a relationship with their kids than white fathers in similar circumstances. Walters, an Obama supporter, warned his candidate, "Black people are not voting for a moralist-in-chief."

    So, in light of the Brown study should we conclude that white men are more irresponsible than black men when it comes to spending time with their kids? Maybe Obama should find a white church and offer white men advice on Father's Day? Can we expect to hear him call them "boys?"

    Or maybe he should take a trip to the hollows of Appalachia and tell the "trailer park crowd" that if they would just "pick up the garbage" from around their trailers and "stop engaging in incest" (or whatever other stereotype that comes to mind) they would not have it so bad.

    Just once, I'd like to see him speak truth to power, instead of attacking the powerless.  

    make it plain

    Obama is the last politician from whom (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by MarkL on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 12:39:36 PM EST
    I want to hear a lecture on accountability.
    What insulting drivel.
    If I wanted Bill Cosby for President, I would vote for him.

    Nobody ... (5.00 / 2) (#208)
    by OrangeFur on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 01:31:19 PM EST
    ... is opposed to parental responsibility and strong families, for people of any race. That's obvious. We're not debating that.

    I think the negative perception is because Obama is quite willing to give these speeches that implicitly but strongly criticize the African American community, but not as willing to do so for other communities, or the public at large. This leads to the suspicion that the criticism is really meant for white voters who believe that racial inequality is due mainly to the failings of the African American community rather than a heritage of racism and discrimination.

    This is in sharp contrast to his developing reputation as someone who says whatever pleases his current audience:

    • To AIPAC, he said that Jerusalem must remain the undivided capital of Israel.

    • On FOX News, he said that Republicans are better than Democrats on a "whole host of issues."

    • In Ohio and Pennsylvania, he ran a protectionist campaign against free trade deals.

    • I didn't check his comments to La Raza, but nothing newsworthy came out of it, so I'm guessing he didn't say anything particularly challenging to the Latino community.

    In all of these cases, there are controversial but mainstream opinions that he could have voiced, but he didn't. The only group he seems to criticize is the black community. And while I'm not black and therefore don't feel comfortable imagining the reaction there, I can see why people might be upset by it.

    Dear Black Voters, (4.33 / 6) (#1)
    by Exeter on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:15:58 AM EST
    As a gift for delivering the Democratic nomination to me by voting almost 100% for me in the primaries, I will now pivot off of you in the general. Now go turn off the TV and get a job.

    Sincerely,

    -Barack Obama

    Of course, one of the problems is that many (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:36:06 AM EST
    poor people, both black and white, have too many jobs in order to survive which tends to leave them with less time to spend with their children.

    Would be nice if Obama would address this issue and exactly how he intends to fix it. Spending a lot of time preaching about what others must do without telling us what he will do makes things IMO rather convenient for him.

    Parent

    To be fair. . . (5.00 / 8) (#20)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:51:57 AM EST
    Would be nice if Obama would address this issue and exactly how he intends to fix it.

    The point of Obama's "personal responsibility" rhetoric is that some things he (or society) can't fix.  Some things people have to take personal responsibility for.

    In the same speech he also covered the ways in which society also has to be responsible -- things like health care, jobs, etc.

    Obama's positions on this issue are pretty good, if you ask me.  Even if you don't like the guy, it's not necessary to dislike every last thing about him, and it tends to detract from the issues that actually deserve criticism.

    Parent

    True, though it is just (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by dk on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:03:21 AM EST
    axiomatic that people have to take personal responsibility for things.  Sadly, it's right wing framing that left-wing activists have not, and do not, stress the importance of personal responsibility.  I think one of the most pernicious influences of Obama on our long term political culture is cementing that idea in the national pyche.  He has done it on many issues, from reproductive choice, the vietnam war, and now civil rights for black Americans.  

    But look at the policy nature of it. You bring up health care.  But, Obama does not have a sustainable, logical health care plan.  Why?  Because he tells young, healthy Americans that they don't have to take personal responsibility for paying into the system.  

    Parent

    the issue is (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:18:44 AM EST
    that the GOP usually brings up personal responsibilty to the "exclusion" of everything else.

    That was Jesse Jackson's issue with Obama on this last week.  Jackson didn't like the fact that Obama talked about personal responsibilty without also address the responsibility of society and govt.

    This time Obama included both personal and societal in his address.

    So, I guess Jackson got what he wanted.

    Parent

    The headline:Obama Re-Admonishes... (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Exeter on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:25:56 AM EST
    ...African Americans

    Then later in this LA Times article, they report that Obama is calling for Black parents to "show more maturity."

    Bad reporting perhaps, but the headline and what IS reported is what matters. It is hard for me to believe that the Obama campaign did not intend for this to be the headline or the part of the message that was focused on in this story and others.

    Parent

    There are a whole lot of things that the (5.00 / 3) (#73)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:39:49 AM EST
    government and society could have fixed a long time ago if they had the will to do it. Changing how schools are funded so that high quality schools were in all neighborhoods and not just the affluent. Providing high quality day care from an early age would have reduced the sizable gap in things like size of vocabulary and understanding that currently exists when poor children enter school. They start with a proven disadvantage from the first day of school.

    I would also bet that Obama never had to face the choice of either putting food on the table or spending more time with his children. How many people even on this site were forced to work more than one job or work long hours just to make sure that their family would have the bare necessities? Do you or Obama know what it is like to have to be pulled in so many directions at one time that you feel like you are being pulled apart. That any choice you make deprives your children of something they NEED.  Spend enough time in that environment and it begins to drain you of energy you can't afford to lose.

    Yes, people need to be responsible but they also need the tools and the knowledgeto help them get to a place where they are able to make decisions beyond survival.

    Parent

    Well. . . (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:53:10 AM EST
    Yes, people need to be responsible but they also need the tools and the knowledge to help them get to a place where they are able to make decisions beyond survival.

    that sounds pretty much like Obama's position, although he might put it "Yes, people need the tools and the knowledge to help them get to a place where they are able to make decisions beyond survival but they also need to be responsible."

    I'm not sure if you're arguing against the idea of personal responsibility but in parts of your comment it sounds a little bit that way.

    Changing how schools are funded so that high quality schools were in all neighborhoods and not just the affluent. Providing high quality day care from an early age would have reduced the sizable gap in things like size of vocabulary and understanding that currently exists when poor children enter school. They start with a proven disadvantage from the first day of school.

    This is actually something I know a bit about (unlike most other things) since I was active in founding an alternative public school in my Harlem neighborhood which my daughters now attend.

    While it's the responsibility of society to provide good public schooling to all children, it's also true that invariably good schools are found where parents keep up the pressure for quality.  We have a good school in our neighborhood because parents fought for it -- just like the good schools downtown, where parents demand a quality education.  There are many complicated issues in our fight for our school, but ultimately it wouldn't have happened without parents (of all races) taking responsibility for getting it done.

    Parent

    What are you talking about? (5.00 / 6) (#92)
    by MMW on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:04:48 AM EST
    About now I'm so tired of the speeches. What are they? A substitute for action, a substitute for policy? What has he done to improve the lives of his constituents?

    Did he persuade Rezco to provide them with electricity and heat, so they could worry about one less thing and concentrate on their kids going to school?

    Did he vote to cap interest rates on credit cards which mostly affects those with low credit scores?

    Is he proposing anything to alleviate these issues?

    Has he spoken to the responsibility of Government in ensuring that businesses are regulated - pay a fair living wage to employees, reduce environmental footprint, have fair trade policies, regulate pharmaceutical companies, provide healthcare to all employees?

    What has he done? I don't give a rats backside what he says. What has he done?

    Parent

    Sounds Like Alinsky Influence (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:08:29 AM EST
    Wow. Fair (none / 0) (#24)
    by tben on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:58:28 AM EST
    to the Democratic nominee?

    What a concept. Whaddaya think, this is some lefty site or something?

    Parent

    I'm willing to welcome. . . (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:03:15 AM EST
    the idea that we should be fair to the Democratic nominee.

    From anyone who also believed we should have been fair to the Democratic candidates.

    Parent

    here's a thought on how to help fix problems (none / 0) (#36)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:11:18 AM EST
    without requiring assistance from the government....

    STOP having babies that you can't afford or don't intend to support.

    It doesn't take any help from the government to use condoms or refuse to have sex without them.

    Parent

    How GOP Of You (5.00 / 3) (#45)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:16:39 AM EST
    Not to mention all the racist one liners your comment refers to.

    Parent
    oh, really.... (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:22:32 AM EST
    did I ever say that my statement doesn't apply to whites as well?

    Are you saying that since Obama was speaking to the NAACP that his pleas for personal responsibility only applied to blacks?  Does Obama not also believe in personal responsibility for whites, latinos and all of society?

    Parent

    Good thing that white, Latino and Asian girls etc (5.00 / 4) (#93)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:05:29 AM EST
    never get pregnant outside of marriage from the lack of adequate education on proper birth control and easily access to methods to prevent unwanted pregnancies.  Seems that limiting a nonspecific remark to just being racist might be making racial assumptions that it only applies to the AA community.

    Maybe more abstinence only sex education under the expanded faith based initiative program will solve the problem.

    Parent

    Point out (none / 0) (#117)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:27:46 AM EST
    the racism.  

    Parent
    won't be able to any more (none / 0) (#150)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:18:45 AM EST
    that anyone could point to the racism Mr Shaheen talking about Obama's youthful drug use, or Bill Clinton saying a vote for Obama would be a roll of the dice and on and on....

    Parent
    Interesting that when you get specific (5.00 / 5) (#68)
    by ruffian on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:31:23 AM EST
    about some of the things Obama is talking about under the vague talk of 'personal repsonsibility', you get called a racist.

    Doesn't that exactly make the point that Obama is using that vague talk as a way to appeal to whites by slamming blacks?

    Parent

    according to squeaky i guess (none / 0) (#78)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:47:07 AM EST
    P.S. (3.66 / 3) (#3)
    by mg7505 on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:17:50 AM EST
    I think you'll find the underside of the bus quite comfortable.

    Parent
    and besides (1.00 / 1) (#6)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:25:21 AM EST
    they have nowhere else to go, right?

    Parent
    I would like to throw you under a bus right now (1.00 / 1) (#11)
    by samtaylor2 on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:35:17 AM EST
    PS. Get over it (none / 0) (#13)
    by ruffian on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:36:23 AM EST
    Whoa! Jeralyn, you've got troll infestation (4.33 / 6) (#64)
    by goldberry on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:28:03 AM EST
    I've never seen so many people praising a speech of common sense before in my life.  No new material there.  Plus, he's lecturing to African-Americans.  Why isn't he saying this stuff to Paris Hilton's tribe?  
    Sorry, but morals, values and discipline aren't just for the black community.  If I were them, I'd get pretty tired of someone wagging a finger at me all the time.  A better richer, curriculum, more educational resources, better paying jobs and a decent place to live goes a long way towards changing an attitude.

    Good On Him (4.00 / 4) (#35)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:10:33 AM EST
    SOunds like leadership to me. Personal responsibility is a good theme for everyone. Too bad most here are so full of hate that they do not get it.

    It isn't that people disagree so much (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by standingup on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:41:15 AM EST
    but that they are also well aware of the other message this carries.  Make no mistake this is a message that speaks directly to many whites and not in a flattering way to the African American community.  

    Parent
    Good grief Squeaky.... (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:14:35 AM EST
    Too bad most here are so full of hate that they do not get it.

    Is this really necessary? I agree with the first part of your post, but is that next part really necessary?

    Parent

    Yes it is (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:19:39 AM EST
    When people are saying that he is "lecturing" and criticizing people for telling them how to live their life they are clearly acting purely from hate.

    If Obama were to say "May we all wish and pray for peace on Earth" there would be people here criticizing him for pandering and setting unrealistice goals.  It is truly absurd.

    Parent

    How in the world (5.00 / 3) (#207)
    by standingup on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 01:16:15 PM EST
    do you know that people are "clearly acting purely from hate" here?  I for one am more concerned that this is a little dog whistle to whites that they should not have to be concerned with some of the more hateful, racist stereotypes that I know come from whites.  I have researched Obama's record and based on that record am not convinced he is acting as a leader in this instance.  I don't want him building false hopes for either group because it will benefit no one other than his campaign and we will still be left with the same problems but no solutions.

    Parent
    Well If It Is Not Hate (3.66 / 3) (#110)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:16:48 AM EST
    It is something, because many here are in the habit of bashing Obama no matter what, hardly based on content.

    It is tiresome and old at this point. Criticism and holding feet to the fire is one thing, but it is meaningless, and empty, if it comes from a position of contempt.

    Parent

    Fair enough..... (5.00 / 4) (#121)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:30:46 AM EST
    ...but the same standards should apply to you, right? Sometimes you seem to be coming at us from a position of contempt too.

    Parent
    I've got no problem (4.62 / 8) (#39)
    by dk on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:13:52 AM EST
    with someone talking about personal responsibility.  But have we really gotten to the point that talking about personal responsibility is an example of leadership?  Heck, republicans talk about personal responsibility all the time.  

    Parent
    Gotten To The Point? (1.00 / 2) (#48)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:18:31 AM EST
     
    But have we really gotten to the point that talking about personal responsibility is an example of leadership?
    What a stupid thing to say, imo. Speak for yourself.

    Parent
    I wasn't speaking for anyone. (5.00 / 6) (#60)
    by dk on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:26:24 AM EST
    I was asking a question.  It's infortunate that you choose to reply to a comment with insults.

    But I'll elaborate anyway.  Obama makes a boilerplate speech talking about the need for both personal responsibility and government assistance, and some try to spin it as an example of leadership.  I'm not buying.  

    It would be a bit closer to leadership if he practiced what he preached (for example, actually respecting women himself...see Bernie Mac at fundraiser).  Or, if he called for young, healthy americans to take some personal responsibility by paying into the healthcare system.  

    It's the difference between words and actions, in my opinion.

    Parent

    Are you freakin serious (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:21:43 AM EST
    So Obama disrespected women because Bernie Mac made some off color joke?  

    Some of you have become a parody.

    Parent

    Yup, I must be one of those (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by dk on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:27:03 AM EST
    obnoxious feminists who don't see the humor and certainly failed to see any of Obama's vaunted leadership abilities in that moment.

    But hey, instead of engaging me in discussion, or just leaving my comment alone, why don't you just insult and bully me by calling me a "parody."  That's a great tactic!

    Parent

    Why should you be taken seriously (3.50 / 2) (#172)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:40:08 AM EST
    When you call Obama disrespectful of women for the comments made by a COMEDIAN?  

    Oh wait let me guess.  Obama should have stood up and denounced Bernie Mac?  Is that how he was disrespectful of women?

    I understand you didn't like the joke.  I didn't care much for it either.  What I don't understand is why Obama is expected to denounce every single person that is tangentially associated with him whenever they say something objectionable.

    Parent

    This was at an (5.00 / 2) (#195)
    by dk on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 12:18:43 PM EST
    Obama fundraiser (get it, raising money for Obama), and Obama was in attendance.  Please explain to me how that makes Obama only "tangentially associated" with him.

    Parent
    I Will Play Nice (1.00 / 1) (#107)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:14:38 AM EST
    If you will. Your question was hardly a question even though it had a question mark. And I did not insult you, I said that it was a stupid comment, because it implies that all of us think Obama is at such a low level that now this is the new bar for leadership.

    Talk about loaded. Your comment was basically an attack not a question.

    Parent

    I'm confused. (4.66 / 3) (#118)
    by dk on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:28:36 AM EST
    Your original comment called this leadership.  Right?  So, you think this is at least at the bar for leadership, ir not above the bar, right?  Is there any other way to interpret it when you say this is an example of leadership?

    So, I responded first by asking whether this is really the bar for the leadership, and then expressing my opinion that I have a different bar, which I consider to be a higher bar.

    This represents a disagreement in where to put the bar.  You responded by calling my comment "stupid."

    I do not call people, or their comments, stupid.  I admit I disagree with you on the bar of leadership, and I fail to see your logic, but that's a far cry from using words like stupid to describe someone you don't even know.

    Parent

    Bar For Leadership? (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:44:42 AM EST
    This basically goes with the meme that Obama is unqualified and needs to pass some sort of test. I do not get how this speech is a bar or measure of leadership or why you are measuring in the first place. It just shows leadership imo. He took a risk and said things people may not want to hear. Obviously it was well received because it does not come from a GOP position of contempt but from a place of caring and love. Meant to be inspiring to action rather than naming and pointing with a sneer.

    Getting a standing ovations does seem like this speech was well received.  

    Parent

    I guess I still (4.50 / 2) (#142)
    by dk on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:02:02 AM EST
    fail to understand how you can say you don't believe in a measure of leadership, but that the speech shows leadership.  To me, that seems like a contradiction.  You seem to have some measure of what leadership is, and you think Obama met that measure in this speech.  I disagree with you on the level of the bar.

    And despite calling the argument that Obama is unqalified a meme, you seem to be engaging in that argument by trying to argue that he is showing leadership.  Again, I just don't see the logic.

    And even by the bar that you are setting, is Obama really meeting it with this speech?  Is he REALLY saying things that his audience doesn't want to hear?  Do you think the people who attended the speech were predisposed to think that personal responsibility is not important.  I wouldn't presume to make that assumption.

    Parent

    Dear Senator Obama, (4.00 / 8) (#131)
    by madamab on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:49:34 AM EST
    The minute you start taking responsibility for your own failings, instead of blaming Hillary, Bill, racism, bitterness, the voters, the media, John McCain and everyone including your grandmother, we will take your admonitions seriously.

    Until then, you can keep talking, but we won't be listening.

    Love,

    America

    A letter from Ugly Betty (1.00 / 2) (#190)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 12:03:54 PM EST
    how nice.

    Really though, the ultimate, mortal sin was beating Mrs Lieberton (AIPAC loves you more than you will know) in the primary.

    Parent

    Jack, A$$. (4.00 / 4) (#155)
    by BDB on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:24:57 AM EST
    Funny how these speeches on "responsibility" only seem to take place when he's speaking to black audiences.  If he really wanted to impress me, he'd give it to telecom company and Wall Street executives.  Let him talk about responsibility to his hedge fund donors.

    Instead, he goes to a historically oppressed community and tells them to turn off the television.  Gee, Barack, that might be easier if we didn't live in an economy where you need two incomes to make ends meet, whether those come from two separate parents or one.  Where 45 million Americans don't have health insurance or access to healthcare.  Where black men are incarcerated at a much higher rate than whites thanks to the idiocy that is the War on Drugs.  All of which are policies that make your friends on Wall Street rich at the expense of the people you are lecturing.

    This is more racist BS, IMO.  But then, as I've said, I'm one of the people who thought when Bill Clinton compared Obama to Jesse Jackson it wasn't Obama who should've been offended.  

    Totally (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by catfish on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:36:25 AM EST
    I'm taking my friend's 9-year-old kid to the pool tomorrow, and she's at home too much watching too much tv because my friend is constantly working her two jobs to pay for things. And it's a single-parent household because the dad took another wife in their home country.

    And he's always telling us to watch what we eat, too. I hate it when skinny people tell me that. Especially skinny smokers.

    Parent

    Name calling is against site rules (none / 0) (#163)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:34:35 AM EST
    Calling Barack Obama a racist MOST CERTAINLY is against the rules of the site.

    What a really poor post intended to do nothing but throw some hate at Obama.

    Parent

    I Didn't Say Obama Is A Racist (5.00 / 3) (#175)
    by BDB on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:45:51 AM EST
    But this is pandering to racists, IMO.  Or did I miss the speech to rich white people Obama gave  where he told the men to keep their original wives and not to send their kids to boarding school?  It's funny how he only worries about black people being bad parents.  Call me cynical, but I don't think it's because he cares about them more.

    Parent
    Really (5.00 / 2) (#178)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:48:57 AM EST
    This is what you said...

    "This is more racist BS, IMO."  

    I see no mention of pandering to racists, which most of you got outraged about when people made the charge against the Clintons.  

    If you think that this particular problem equally affects both African-Americans and Whites then you need to get out more.

    And I'm not sure if you know this but Barack Obama is...... a black man.  That may be why he is more connected to this issue than say Elizabeth Dole.

    Parent

    I Know He's a Black Man (4.00 / 4) (#183)
    by BDB on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:58:44 AM EST
    that's why he has to lecture black audiences so that white voters know he isn't going to do jack for them.  It's his way, IMO, of signalling to all those white voters that they don't have to worry about him instituting some big social program to help African Americans out.  He recognizes that it's their own damned fault.  It's the same reason he claims African Americans are 90% of the way to full equality (tell that to AAs living in Mississippi).

    But here's the thing, it's not true that only African Americans are poor.  Most poor are actually white (although blacks are disproportionately poor) and they suffer from many of the same social problems their black counterparts suffer from.  But they do not get lectured on their moral failings.

    It's a neat trick what the rightwing has done in this country which is to create a stereotype of poor people as black people and then paint them as irresponsible and unworthy of white society's help.

    Well, I'm sorry, but I want better social programs for the poor, including African Americans.  And when I hear a politician talk like this, what that tells me is that we're not getting them.  Because he's continuing the frames used to discredit those "excesses of the 60s and 70s" and not to build support for such programs.

    Parent

    Nice projections there (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 12:06:41 PM EST
    You've convinced yourself that Obama is a crypto-Conservative.  

    I wonder when Barack Obama said this....

    - Go into any inner city neighborhood, and folks will tell you that government alone can't teach our kids to learn; they know that parents have to teach, that children can't achieve unless we raise their expectations and turn off the television sets and eradicate the slander that says a black youth with a book is acting white. They know those things.

    Did you think he was pandering?  Of course that was pre-Hillary so maybe you had your hate phaser set to stun at the time.

    I STRONGLY believe in eradicating barriers and removing institutional safety nets designed solely for the wealthy.  It is the reason I am a Liberal.  

    But it is pure folly to think that the poor no responsibility for their actions.  

    Parent

    Breathtaking... (3.00 / 2) (#166)
    by mrmobi on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:37:31 AM EST
    The minute you start taking responsibility for your own failings, instead of blaming Hillary, Bill, racism, bitterness, the voters, the media, John McCain and everyone including your grandmother, we will take your admonitions seriously.

    ...in it's wilfull ignorance. This site is chock full of what I can only assume are Republican Ratf*ckers today. Clearly, you are angry about something. Since, from your list, I can see it is not fact-based, I'm inclined to believe that your agenda is simply to diminish the prospects of the presumptive Democratic nominee. The actual content of what he says or does doesn't matter, because you can't even be bothered to read and understand his positions (which are virtually identical to one of his staunchest supporters, Hillary Clinton).

    If your game is willful ignorance, you really need to try harder. Hell, anyone with Google could do better, just search "Daniel Pipes" or some other smear merchant. There are plenty of lies out there. If you're going to do this, you should at least try to make it appear credible. You know, like they do at No Quarter. They really know how to do hate over there.

    Otherwise, you just sound like a sore loser who needs a whaaammbulance. Oh, and not a Democrat.

    Nice name-calling (none / 0) (#176)
    by catfish on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:46:16 AM EST
    This thread is getting out of control.

    Parent
    i was hoping you would have the part (none / 0) (#7)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:31:51 AM EST
    of the speech where Obama referred to the older generation's refusal to settle when it came to their civil rights...  I heard that part of the speech on NPR this morning on the way into work.

    I was sure that his recognition of the past civil rights leaders refusal would help to finally explain for me Obama's acceptance of the Rev Donnie McClurkin. Rev Meeks and Obama's insistance that civil unions for gays is actually equal rights and not "separate but equal".

    here is the quote from Obama's speech (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:51:20 AM EST
    that i was hoping to see today

    "It is because of them; and all those whose names never made it into the history books - those men and women, young and old, black, brown and white, clear-eyed and straight-backed, who refused to settle for the world as it is; who had the courage to remake the world as it should be - that I stand before you tonight as the Democratic nominee for President of the United States of America. "

    REFUSED TO SETTLE for the world as it is....
    COURAGE to remake it as it SHOULD BE....

    this is far different than supporting proposals that are the best we can hope to get in the current environment.

    Parent

    Maybe one day, those who refused to (5.00 / 4) (#37)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:11:33 AM EST
    settle for terrible legislation like FISA will be held up as examples of courage and principle; too bad Obama won't be one of them.

    Parent
    Anne, your response to the courage quote (none / 0) (#91)
    by andrys on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:01:49 AM EST
    was exactly what I had been feeling upon reading the quote and it seemed to hang there as an ideal for someone other than Obama.

     It was so stark to see those words and remember FISA and that the majority of Senate Democrats voted against that bill, but not Obama.  I still can't fathom the 180 degree turn-around from promising a filibuster to being in the minority of party members voting FOR that bill as it now exists.  

      Courage indeed.  

      And it doesn't take much courage to again preach to one group about that group, and its need for more personal responsibility, in front of another group whose votes you need.

    Parent

    face it, this is a political speech and (2.00 / 3) (#42)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:16:03 AM EST
    the campaign thinks it is actually an poor substitute for real policy. no thanks, we won't fall for it.

    Parent
    He could do this without lecturing (none / 0) (#162)
    by catfish on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:32:44 AM EST
    He does this lecturing routine to a lot of constituent groups, like automakers, women (there's got to be a law forbidding late-term abortions for mere mental distress.)

    Corey Booker is a younger black politician and he always pays deference to the people who came before him. Obama could give this message without being so divisive. He could say that because of what Jackson accomplished, we now have the privilege of focusing back on our families, strengthening family time, personal responsibility.

    Buh-bye Jackson and Sharpton... (none / 0) (#186)
    by stefystef on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 12:00:55 PM EST
    Obama is moving you old timers out!  That's why Jesse's mad at Obama.  He realizes his days are over and Obama's success has nothing to do with Jackson.  Jackson is NOT the King Maker he thought he was...

    In his implicit criticism that some black men neglect their children, Obama showed he was prepared to endure a breach with his political base. The move could have an upside: White voters might see it as an example of courage.

    Perhaps Nadar is right... Obama is really playing to the WHITE audience, saying all the things white people want to say to the black community and getting a black man to do it for them.